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Re: [atlarge-discuss] PASSED: motion on VOTING PROCEDURE (fwd)



Bruce and all stakeholders or other interested parties and members,

Bruce Young wrote:

> Jeff Williams wrote:
>
> |    Well actually yes it can and should be more open then just archives
> |  of the Panel list.  It should be interactive, not just a closed list.
>
> As opposed to this list, the Panel list is a "low noise" forum where the
> panel holds their discussions regarding issues we're making motions or
> voting on.

  "Low Noise"???  Hummm?  Well that implies that your opinion of
the members discourse and debate is "Noise".  That seems to characterize
a type of moral superiority between yourself and other members.  I
find that to be rather chilling and inconsistent with good democratic
values and process.


>  Any decisions from this process are always announced on thge
> Discuss list.  It *is* interactive for those who have rights on it, i.e. the
> Panel members.

  But it is not interactive to the members.  Hence it is not interactive,
open and transparent.

>
>
> Bruce Young
> Portland, Oregon USA
> byoung651@attbi.com
> http://www.barelyadequate.info
> --------------------------------------------
> Support democratic control of the Internet!
> Go to http://www.icannatlarge.org and Join ICANN At Large!
>
> |  -----Original Message-----
> |  From: Jeff Williams [mailto:jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com]
> |  Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 11:44 AM
> |  To: Bruce Young
> |  Cc: atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de
> |  Subject: Re: [atlarge-discuss] PASSED: motion on VOTING PROCEDURE (fwd)
> |
> |
> |  Bruce and all stakeholders or other interested parties and members,
> |
> |  Bruce Young wrote:
> |
> |  > Sotiris Sotiropoulos wrote:
> |  >
> |  > |   I was simply stating my concern that whatever votes
> |  > |  are carried out by the Panel are not done secretly or
> |  > |  anonymously.
> |  >
> |  > You can see every conversation and every vote the panel has ever had at
> |  > http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-panel/
> |  >
> |  > Doesn't get much more open than that!
> |
> |    Well actually yes it can and should be more open then just archives
> |  of the Panel list.  It should be interactive, not just a closed list.
> |  Closed lists that are discussing or debating issues that impact the
> |  members are a form of censorship.  Hence they should be stamped
> |  out entirely.  Yes, the Panel should be completely open and
> |  above board in their discussions regarding member effected
> |  practices or policies, but still have inter-operational discussions
> |  amongst themselves as panel members.  We must be very careful
> |  here too though, so as not to breed distrust.  That can be difficult.
> |
> |  >
> |  >
> |  > Bruce Young
> |  > Portland, Oregon USA
> |  > bruce@barelyadequate.info
> |  > http://www.barelyadequate.info
> |  > --------------------------------------------
> |  > Support democratic control of the Internet!
> |  > Go to http://www.icannatlarge.com and Join ICANN At Large!
> |  >
> |  > |  -----Original Message-----
> |  > |  From: Sotiris Sotiropoulos [mailto:sotiris@hermesnetwork.com]
> |  > |  Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 8:49 AM
> |  > |  To: Norbert Klein
> |  > |  Cc: atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de
> |  > |  Subject: Re: [atlarge-discuss] PASSED: motion on VOTING
> |  PROCEDURE (fwd)
> |  > |
> |  > |
> |  > |  Norbert et al.,
> |  > |
> |  > |  I think you misunderstood my message.  I do not think the entire
> |  > |  membership must
> |  > |  needs vote on every issue.  I was simply stating my concern that
> |  > |  whatever votes
> |  > |  are carried out by the Panel are not done secretly or
> |  > |  anonymously.  The Panel
> |  > |  ought/must vote in a public fashion, such that the membership
> |  > |  may know which
> |  > |  Panel member voted for or against what position.
> |  > |
> |  > |  Sincerely,
> |  > |
> |  > |  Sotiris Sotiropoulos
> |  > |
> |  > |  Norbert Klein wrote:
> |  > |
> |  > |  > > Hans et al.,
> |  > |  > >
> |  > |  > > Am I to understand then that this means the Paenl will vote
> |  > |  in secret and
> |  > |  > > aonymously?  If this is the case, I strenuously object.
> |  > |  > >
> |  > |  > > Sincerely,
> |  > |  > >
> |  > |  > > Sotiris Sotiropoulos
> |  > |  >
> |  > |  > Can you please help me to understand your concern.
> |  > |  >
> |  > |  > What do you mean by "in secret and anonymously" when there is
> |  > |  a transparent
> |  > |  > procedure how votes among the panel members will proceed, and
> |  > |  how they will
> |  > |  > be counted etc.
> |  > |  >
> |  > |  > Or do you object that the Panel has a procedure how the panel
> |  > |  can come to a
> |  > |  > common opinion - proposing that everything should be discussed
> |  > |  and voted by
> |  > |  > the full membership? I cannot think that this could work,
> |  > |  given that we have
> |  > |  > already 1000 members and hopefully more in future.
> |  > |  >
> |  > |  > Then the question would be what will be discussed AND voted by
> |  > |  the Panel,
> |  > |  > and what should be discussed by the full membership.
> |  > |  >
> |  > |  > But maybe I misunderstood what you meant. Please clarify.
> |  > |  >
> |  > |  > Norbert
> |  > |  >
> |  > |  > --
> |  > |  > Norbert Klein
> |  > |  > Open Forum of Cambodia: www.forum.org.kh
> |  > |  >
> |  > |  >
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> |  Regards,
> |  --
> |  Jeffrey A. Williams
> |  Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 127k members/stakeholders strong!)
> |  CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
> |  Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
> |  E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com
> |  Contact Number: 214-244-4827 or 972-244-3801
> |  Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208
> |
> |
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Regards,
--
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 127k members/stakeholders strong!)
CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com
Contact Number: 214-244-4827 or 972-244-3801
Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208



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