[atlarge-discuss] Membership Issues and an Invitation to IRC -- was Membership fees

["MPoole" <urgen@charter.net>]

Hi Richard,

My name is Mark Poole.  I was swept into activity by the recent nomination
cycle that seems to be swirling about still although now attempting to
mature.  The line that defines this, my, 'participation' wavers around
whether the platform that allows such demonstrates the ability to
acknowledge my concerns and interests.

It seems like you are attempting to describe that means of participation or
the basis of what helps to keep it genuine.

The mechanisms that support  the ability to demonstrate agreement within a
digitally networked exchange.

I would have rather written to you off-list because this is a rather fragile
topic for me but I recognize that it is probably a fragile topic for
everyone.   The high degree of stakes posturing and measures profiling
points to that fragility and the complimentary degree of potential reward
available when properly cultivated.

Setting the stage to recognize when the challenge of mutual fair use is not
being kept is an important distinction to begin definitions with.  Building
the mechanisms of this use's expression is even more important for its
continued survival.

You have mentioned starting to craft some tools (bylaws) toward this end and
I would enjoy working with you on those.  Toward that goal I have dedicated
an IRC server for interim use until something more solid takes its place.

Please join me there so we can begin to work together on how to carve out
these tools and then demonstrate their ability as guardians of voluntary
participation to allow others to encourage meaningful exchange with.

I also invite anyone else who wishes to explore these kinds of ideas to stop
by.

IRC may be a bit of a hurdle for some but it is not much more difficult than
using this listserv.  Get the right client and point it in the right
direction and woosh you're there.

For more help with obtaining an IRC client for the platform of your choice
visit http://www.irchelp.org or you can write back to me directly and I will
get you going.

The pertinent information here being the command (IRC commands often begin
with a "/"):

        /server druk.imperma.net

and:

        /join #@Large

There were a few suggestions for clients sent to me the other couple times I
brought up the IRC idea.  Which client anyone selects is not so important.
Some do have advantages over others allowing for a more comfortable user
experience.  There was also concern about the use of a public use dedicated
server so I have set up something just for atlarge use.  Other ircd
available may be networked to distribute load and share responsibility.


Thanks for your time,

    Mark Poole

p.s.  I will just leave my process idling on the channel when I am busy, so
if you see 'urgen' and I don't say hello, don't take offense, I'm probably
not really there.  If you have broadband you are welcome to let the client
idle connected until more people do begin to show up and  a world-wide 24
hour 7 day conversation can begin to take place.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Henderson" <richardhenderson@ntlworld.com>
To: <gilbert.lumantao@mailcity.com>; <DannyYounger@cs.com>;
<atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de>; "James S. Tyre" <jstyre@jstyre.com>
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: [atlarge-discuss] Membership fees


> Either we want to promote a small organisation of relatively wealthy
> specialists, in which case they can pay $25 to $50 a year, and operate
just
> another group, run in the same way, and lumped together with various other
> groups by ICANN. It will be informed, it will have a few smart meetings a
> year, it will be a club
>
> or...
>
> We are simply the internet users of the world, anyone who wants to join,
no
> fees, no barriers, no smart and fancy meetings, but simply an ideal... a
> bottom up democratic movement, claiming what nearly everyone feels
> emotionally... that this world shouldn't belong to the wealthy few and the
> corporate elite... and that the Internet belongs to every single
individual
> who uses it... and our very openness, our cost-free openness, run on a
> shoestring of voluntary contributions, becomes part of the cult...
>
> because...
>
> The key isn't the refined informed contained project... but the key is
> *imagination* and *feeling*... to capture the imagination of internet
users
> all over the world, even though we are poor, even though we start with a
> website and a message... and yet without the financial stumbling block...
> the door is open and no-one feels estranged... we are identifying with the
> poor and the ordinary and regular people
>
> and we aim...
>
> To get an "Our Internet" banner in the top corner of more and more
websites,
> and we communicate the people's net... and we aim not for a small informed
> inclusive club, but a romantic movement... so easy to join... and easy to
> understand... and a noble thing which people can embrace...
>
> money...
>
> is the language of USG and ICANN and it is the paradigm of power... but
you
> see, we don't even need to attend ICANN's meetings (though some of us
> may)... because we should aim instead to build an alternative... a
different
> polarity... a stakeholders movement... on our own ground, and on our own
> terms... until the media notices, and governments outside US notice, and
> academics notice...
>
> it's them and us...
>
> it's not about negotiating a Director or three on a stacked Board... it's
> not about ALAC... it's about building something separate and apart, as a
> platform for informed assertion and a vision for the net... and if we fall
> into the trap of charging membership fees and doing everything
respectfully
> and predictably, then we may just become like them... but we are trying to
> demonstrate a more open, and fairer model...
>
> a network of communities and individuals... in an alliance... with power
not
> based on money but on conviction... using technology to define and
determine
> our own future internet... defining it bottom up through the will of every
> single individual - one member one vote - and demonstrating the legitmacy
of
> that ideal... an exercise of authority for which there is no entrance fee,
> no exams to pass, and no Nominating Committee or Delegates ... but open to
> all, and run from the poorest individual up
>
> and the future...
>
> I know people will say, we will have bills to pay... we will not be taken
> seriously... but I say: the contributions will come, and people will take
us
> seriously, *if* we capture the imagination, if we are idealistic all the
> way, and if we identify from the start with the poorest people on the face
> of this earth, the digitally divided, and next the small village
communities
> who maybe share one computer between ten villages, and the single mums on
> welfare who can't afford the next meal let alone $50 membership, and the
> ordinary of this planet (who are mostly dispossessed)... and the poorer
> countries too, who don't need to go and do homage and bow down to the
> rich... and if we are just open and let this ideal become a virus... is
> it...
>
> is it...?
>
> ...just possible that the foolish thing will happen, not the safe
> respectable club, but the shared humanity of one individual and another
and
> thirty of us here and ten more there and more individuals and more
> individuals and more individuals... until we make ICANN and its
preposterous
> arrogance seem the foolish thing and the despised thing... the arrogance
> that assumes the clique can self-perpetuate and "possess" the earth (or
the
> digital empire it envisages upon it)... and excludes the Users who are in
> their millions, doing humanity everyday over this great net of networks...
> for education, for trade, for compassion, for freedom, for information,
for
> health, for...
>
> communication...
>
> ...isn't it strange, how in the birth pangs of this organisation, we have
> struggled so much with communication, enough to scare each other off a
dozen
> times... and yet... we have something bigger in common... however hard it
is
> to communicate... we keep communicating... because we see in this
technology
> the power and the potential not just for us, but for the human race... and
> somehow, though we often wish we could, we cannot shake off this vision...
> that ordinary people should be able to communicate... the coming together
of
> nations, and communities, and individuals... without political control or
> interference... without the corporations taking control... the right of
> people to own their own networks... and communicate
>
> I don't favour membership fees because then we start to close the doors,
we
> start to become the cognoscenti and the insiders, we start to diminish the
> vision...
>
> which needs to be demonstrated in the reality of what it is, even if it
> seems like an affront at Hearndon, even if it seems like we're nobodies...
> *that's* their possible mistake... to think you can marginalise the whole
of
> the world... when the whole of the world *is* what the net is about, who
we
> are about, and who we are open to
>
> Richard H
>
> PS: Some will say, "We need money to incorporate"... I say, "Then we
> incorporate when we have that money"... I'm not wealthy, I'm not grand,
I've
> kids to feed, but I'd give $50 and maybe ten others can match it, and then
> we have the first $500, and that's not much, but at least we get to verify
> ourselves through Paypal :) ... and some people may be rich enough to
> contribute a little more, maybe I can save up more for the autumn, and new
> members will volunteer I'm sure... and those of you who are really poor
and
> it's a duty *not* to pay (because who feeds your kids) then it's free, the
> door is open, welcome, you are still equal among equal, and nobody gets
> judged here by the size of their bank account... maybe I'm just stupid,
but
> we're a not for profit, we're in the people business, and its people we
> want, the money - well, we just spend what we get... if we get... when we
> get. We will get. The more people, the more money. Entrance free, pay
later
> if you want. More people, because we're not taking their money. Entrance
> fee, less people, or just the club. Friends, if you try to be normal, I'm
> sorry but this org is just never going to get lift off, because we're
trying
> to achieve something which is a little more than normal, and it's the
> feeling (not the logic) which needs to prevail. When people *feel*
strongly,
> they'll give. Their money or their time or their support. Let them
> participate. Don't just govern them. A growing river of people, with a
> vision, intent on determining the direction the net should take, intent on
> defining the way it should be run, joining in, involved, defiant!
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gilbert Estillore Lumantao <gilbert.lumantao@lycos.com>
> To: <DannyYounger@cs.com>; <atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de>; James S. Tyre
> <jstyre@jstyre.com>
> Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 11:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [atlarge-discuss] Membership fees
>
>
> > From: "James S. Tyre" <jstyre@jstyre.com>
> > To: DannyYounger@cs.com, atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de
> > Cc:
> > >Danny, with respect, you are comparing apples and rutabagas.
> > >At the bottom, you say "you get what you pay for," but what do you get
> back
> > >from belonging to any of these three organizations, or hundreds of
> similar
> > >ones?  Obviously it varies some from org to org,
> >
> > i agree. this boils down to what kind of organization are we building.
> isn't it enough that people are using the net to be allowed to join
@large?
> >
> > 1$ is around 52 pesos in the philippines. that would be around the price
> of one meal. with that, i hope you can understand that 25$ or more can
> easily be a barrier of participation, at least in the philippines. and
isn't
> participation what @large is?
> >
> > i would rather that we screen non-serious members through a minimum
> requirement of participation (like voting) instead of requiring them to
pay
> unreasonable membership fees.
> >
> > gilbert
> > ---
> > Gilbert E. Lumantao
> > 200 Commonwealth Avenue
> > Quezon City 1101 Philippines
> > Mobile No. 63-918-9387793
> > Email Address: gilbert.lumantao@mailcity.com
> > Website: http://www.batasayti.freeservers.com
> > ---
> >
> > "Plan for what is difficult while it is easy, do what is great while it
is
> small. The most difficult things in the world must be done while they are
> still easy, the greatest things in the world must be done while they are
> still small. For this reason sages never do what is great, and this is why
> they can achieve that greatness." - Attributed by Sun Tzu to warriors of
> ancient times.
> >
>
>
>
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