[FYI] (Fwd) FC: More on Germany planning DOS attacks against oversea

["Axel H Horns" <horns@ipjur.com>]

------- Forwarded message follows -------
Date sent:      	Mon, 09 Apr 2001 09:26:56 -0700
To:             	politech@politechbot.com
From:           	Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject:        	FC: More on Germany planning DOS attacks against overseas sites
Send reply to:  	declan@well.com


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Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 00:05:52 +0200
From: "Thomas 'Mike' Michlmayr" <mike@cluon.priv.at>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: FC: Germany plans DOS attacks against overseas sites
--Der Spiegel

On Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 09:31:10 -0700,
Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> wrote:
[...]
 > For those who aren't able to read German texts: According to a
 recent > SPIEGEL ONLINE report, Otto Schily, German Home Secretary,
 publicly > considers plans to perform "Official" DOS-attacks on
 foreign websites

the whole thing got started by an article in the washington post which
is available at the URL below:

http://www.steptoe.com/webdoc.nsf/Files/schily/$file/schily.html

-- 
Thomas 'Mike' Michlmayr  | ignorami: n: The BOFH art of folding
problem <mike+sig@cluon.priv.at> |           lusers into
representational shapes.

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From: "Bill Fason" <wfason@houston.rr.com>
To: <declan@well.com>
Subject: Re: Germany plans DOS attacks against overseas sites --Der
Spiegel -         English edition Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 14:06:51 -0500

SPIEGEL ONLINE - 06. April 2001, 18:21
URL: http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/politik/0,1518,126921,00.html

MIT HACKERMETHODEN GEGEN NEONAZIS
[WITH HACKER METHODS AGAINST NEO-NAZIS]
Von Frank Patalong
Trans. By wfason@houston.rr.com

Minister of the Interior Otto Schily is considering plans to use
hackers to take down foreign websites.  Last Spring hackers used
similar methods to block access to parts of the Internet.

HAMBURG - Hacker attacks sponsored by the German Ministry of the
Interior do not "enter the realm of the illegal," argued Dirk Inger,
spokesman for the Ministry, rather such attacks would represent "the
defense of our system of laws against illegal attacks by those who
consciously exploit the international medium of the Internet." 
Various steps must be contemplated in terms of their accordance with
law, effectiveness, and probability of success.

Still unanswered is the question of who would actually carry out the
denial-of-service attacks. Since last year's worldwide DOS attacks on
commercial sites such as Yahoo! and eBay, Schilly has scraped up
against the the dangers of cyberspace.  As a reaction to the DOS
attacks and the "I Love You" virus in spring 200, Schily set up an
"Internet Task Force" to protect Germany's "critical infrastructure." 
That sounds defensive, but it appears to have taken on new meaning. Up
until now the "Internet Task Force" has appeared to be more of a
government debate club, but Schily seeks to transform its role into
something more of a "rapid deployment force."

In an interview with the Washington Post on December 21, 2000, that
went largely unnoticed in Germany,  Schily argued that defensive
measures could include certain or "forward defense" variations.
NeoNazi websites are perceived as endangering the state
[staatsgefährdend], and they are difficult to shut down, especially
when they are housed on web servers in the United States where they
are protected by the First Amendment to the US Constitution.  The US
First Amendment extends greater freedom of expression than in any
other county in the world, protecting even Holocaust deniers.

Against this stands German justice since December 12, 2000. On that
day, the German Supreme Court decided that Neo-Nazi and hate speech
can be prosecuted under Garman law even when published in other
countries.  The American instigators of Neo-Nazi websites are
disturbed by this decision very little. They feel protected in that
there is very propect that they would face extradition by American
authorities to Germany for acts committed in the US which may violate
German speech laws, stated John Russell, then spokesperson for the US
Department of Justice, in a reaction to the decision of the German
Supreme Court.

DO THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS?

Schily does not want to come to terms with this situation.  Next to
the officials ways, Schily told the Post, he could imagine bringing
down Neo-Nazi sites with spam or DOS attacks, if other methods are not
successful.

Alan Davidson at the Center for Democracy and Technology in Washington
thinks this is a crazy [aberwitzig - crazy, terrible] idea.  "This
would mean that one breaks the law in order to shut down a site which
is legally operating in another country."

The German branch of the respected Internet Society (Isoc) at Saint
Augustin shares Davidson's perception. "Isoc.de supports the passage
of legal regulations for the Internet.  For Isoc.de. the Internet is
no wild west. [rechtsfrierer Raum - "lawless space"]  For precisely
this reason, it is not justified to use dubious methods to close off
access to foreign websites that are operating under the protection of
free speech laws in that country, even when such sites contain extreme
rightwing content," according to a statement issued by Isoc.de.

The Ministry of the Interior sees it differently. While DOS attacks
are legally pursued,  apparently the belief in Berlin is, carefully
stated, that a very laudable goal justifies a controversial means.

In terms of the chances of success, the DOS attacks can hardly be
beat: they accomplish in minutes what might take months in a trial.
However it eventually plays out, it will be heatedly discussed in the
coming days.

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Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 20:17:12 -0400
From: Marc Getty <marc@getty.net>
To: Heiko Spallek <heiko@spallek.com>
CC: declan@well.com
Subject: Germany plans DOS attacks against overseas sites --Der
Spiegel

Heiko,

This is pretty dumb to actually think this could ever work. Even if
you ignore all of the legal and political implications, it still would
never work. The upstream ISPs for the site in question would just
black hole German network(s) upon finding out this was happening to
their network.

Forget all of the legal and political implications, network stability,
also known as money to ISPs, is much more important. They could black
hole a German ISP, or even the entire nation of Germany in minutes at
best, a few hours at worst. This would all take place long before the
media could report anything, and long long before the politicians
could even comment, let alone do anything about it.

It would be okay for this idiot to think such things, or to even
discuss the possibility of doing such things with his colleagues, but
it is complete idiocy to tell Der Spiegel of these thoughts.

As a father you should be happy that such idiocy still runs free in
the world, this almost guarantees that your children have a chance of
becoming very successful in life.

-Marc

***********

Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 01:11:14 -0500
To: declan@well.com
From: thud <thud@roadkill.net>
Subject: Re: FC: Germany plans DOS attacks against overseas sites
--Der
   Spiegel

At 11:31 AM 4/7/2001, you wrote:


>*********
>
>Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 14:11:30 -0700
>To: declan@well.com
>From: mech@eff.org (Stanton McCandlish)
>Subject: Fwd: [FYI] German Government considers DOS-Attacks against
>  undesired foreign websites
>
>An (anonymized) headsup from a German:
>
>
>For those who aren't able to read German texts: According to a recent
>SPIEGEL ONLINE report, Otto Schily, German Home Secretary, publicly
>considers plans to perform "Official" DOS-attacks on foreign websites
>which are deemed to violate applicable German law. Obviously Schily
>thinks that DOS attacks might in particular be a suitable procedure
>to combat nazi websites hosted in the U.S. and there being protected
>by the First Amendment.  However, even other undesired content banned
>by German law might be honoured by an "Official DOS Attack".
>
>Are there any friends abroad who might explain the principles of law
>to our Government? I think there should be as much forign media
>coverage as possible in order to prevent the worst possible
>developments.

[snippage]

Declan,

         I have to laugh.  Germany is insignificant as far as 'Net
         presence is
concerned.  The U.S. could blast Germany right off the 'Net without
even breaking a sweat.  Look at who owns the satellites and
transoceanic cables that carry the bulk of 'Net traffic to/from
Germany.  Hint: it ain't the Germans.  (I'm a lamer as far as
dark-side hacking goes, but I did manage to take down a FreeNet in FL
a few years ago, when a particularly obnoxious luser wouldn't stop
sending me unwanted de-mail.  It helped having a connection to the
fiber backbone connecting the five major supercomputing centers in the
U.S. at the time...)

         Furthermore, while German "crackers" have shown some talent,
         I don't
think they'd last long in a DOS war waged against U.S. programmers.

         In short, Germany doesn't dare screw with the U.S. when it
         comes 
to the
'Net.  Some of the former Soviet states pose a far greater threat,
IMHO.  When you're looking for Warez, do you go for German URLs or
those in former Soviet bloc nations.

Best regards,
Synergy

P.S.  I read your articles on an a regular basis.  I've been on the
'Net in one way, shape or form for about two decades now.  You are one
of the few 'Net journalists who seems to have a real clue.  Please
keep up the great work!

***********





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