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Re: [atlarge-discuss] Re: Sotiris Sotiropoulos FUD follows Hugh Blair FUD to: Re: [atlarge-discuss] Re: Sotiris, Where is that Registered Restricted Letter? Re: [atlarge-discuss] Provisional Membership Committee

To: Joanna Lane <jo-uk@rcn.com>
Subject: Re: [atlarge-discuss] Re: Sotiris Sotiropoulos FUD follows Hugh Blair FUD to: Re: [atlarge-discuss] Re: Sotiris, Where is that Registered Restricted Letter? Re: [atlarge-discuss] Provisional Membership Committee
From: Jeff Williams <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:34:21 -0700
Cc: Ron Sherwood <sherwood@islands.vi>, Sotiris Sotiropoulos <sotiris@hermesnetwork.com>, atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de
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Joanna and all fellow members,

  Joanna, I have already 7 times provided more than 2 verifiable
forms of ID for myself.  So all this IS about Sotiris, Hugh, Jefsey,
and a few others dislike towards myself and or anyone that
I or Jeff H., might know, converse with, or agree with.

Joanna Lane wrote:

> Ron,
> How dare you throw this at me:
>
> 'For you and
> > anyone else that does not want Jeff Williams to be verified to continue to
> > make excuses...'
>
> I have NEVER once said I did not want Jeff Williams verified, neither am I
> making excuses. For the avoidance of doubt, I couldn't care less whether JW
> is verified or not. If he wants to be verified, then he must cooperate with
> the process, which does not mean we have to chase him to eliminate doubt, it
> means he proactively takes a step to provide us with sufficient evidence
> that a reasonable person can believe he is the person he says he is.
>
> I do not want to waste more time on JW either, but this is not about him per
> se, he is just being used as the hook to hang the debate about verification
> problems in general, so let's get away from personal accusations, it's
> counterproductive and results in the kind of response you have just seen
> from Walter Schmidt, with whom I would agree if he had not missed the point.
>
> Joanna
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ron Sherwood [mailto:sherwood@islands.vi]
> > Sent: 12 June 2003 09:13
> > To: Joanna Lane; Sotiris Sotiropoulos
> > Cc: atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de
> > Subject: Re: [atlarge-discuss] Re: Sotiris Sotiropoulos FUD follows Hugh
> > Blair FUD to: Re: [atlarge-discuss] Re: Sotiris, Where is that
> > Registered Restricted Letter? Re: [atlarge-discuss] Provisional
> > Membership Committee
> >
> >
> > Joanna:
> >
> > Sotiris claims that a "Restricted Delivery" letter (one that must be
> > delivered to the named recipient, against an ID) is good enough
> > to verify a
> > member of this organization.  He has used that method to do so.
> > For you and
> > anyone else that does not want Jeff Williams to be verified to continue to
> > make excuses not to do so, simply brands you all as people who will
> > arbitrarily change the rules when they want to discriminate
> > against someone.
> >
> > You know as well as I do that if I stay for a day in a motel, I can have a
> > Restricted Delivery letter delivered to me at that physical address and it
> > is less likely to be my address than a P.O Box rented in my name.  A P.O.
> > Box where the United States Postal Service is only permitted to deliver a
> > Restricted Delivery letter to the named recipient against a valid ID.  Of
> > course there is a possibility that someone could cheat the
> > system. You have
> > just stated that you are prepared to lie to the Postal
> > authorities in order
> > to forge Jeff Williams' signature on a Restricted Delivery
> > receipt, in order
> > to retrieve the code and prove that you are him.
> >
> > Well, Joanna as long as we have people like you who are prepared to make
> > your written claim that you will commit that type of Postal
> > fraud, simply as
> > an excuse to stop Sotiris from applying the same rules to Jeff Williams as
> > he claims work perfectly well for others, we do have a problem that is far
> > greater than our Jeff Williams problem.  If you are going to use the
> > argument that everyone in the world is as dishonest as you claim to be,
> > there are very few verification systems that can't be cheated.
> >
> > Ron Sherwood
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joanna Lane" <jo-uk@rcn.com>
> > To: "Ron Sherwood" <sherwood@islands.vi>; "Sotiris Sotiropoulos"
> > <sotiris@hermesnetwork.com>
> > Cc: <atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 8:43 AM
> > Subject: RE: [atlarge-discuss] Re: Sotiris Sotiropoulos FUD follows Hugh
> > Blair FUD to: Re: [atlarge-discuss] Re: Sotiris, Where is that Registered
> > Restricted Letter? Re: [atlarge-discuss] Provisional Membership Committee
> >
> >
> > > Sending a registered letter to a PO Box is not sufficient
> > evidence on its
> > > own to verify that a person is who they say they are. There
> > would need to
> > be
> > > other evidence of the name as well.
> > >
> > > The owner of a PO Box receives any mail sent that address, regardless of
> > who
> > > it is addressed to, so the PO Box Jeff has provided may exist, but be
> > > registered in another name. If you don't believe me, send a letter to my
> > PO
> > > Box, and/ or to Michael's PO Box, (doesn't have to be registered) both
> > > addressed to Jeff Williams, with secret code.
> > >
> > > Joanna
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Ron Sherwood [mailto:sherwood@islands.vi]
> > > > Sent: 12 June 2003 07:59
> > > > To: Sotiris Sotiropoulos
> > > > Cc: atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de
> > > > Subject: Re: [atlarge-discuss] Re: Sotiris Sotiropoulos FUD
> > follows Hugh
> > > > Blair FUD to: Re: [atlarge-discuss] Re: Sotiris, Where is that
> > > > Registered Restricted Letter? Re: [atlarge-discuss] Provisional
> > > > Membership Committee
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sotiris:
> > > >
> > > > A Panel member who belligerently declares that he will only
> > verify Jeff
> > > > Williams if he provides a mailing address that can receive a
> > Restricted
> > > > Delivery letter.  And then, when an address is provided, that Panel
> > member
> > > > spends days spouting myriad excuses for not doing so, there
> > is a serious
> > > > credibility issue.
> > > >
> > > > Your latest excuse is that Jeff Holt is going to try to meet with Jeff
> > > > Williams at some point in time and space that may or may not happen
> > > > depending upon the will of both parties. Why would you use this
> > > > latest ploy
> > > > to evade doing what you said you would do days ago?  If you
> > really want
> > to
> > > > verify Jeff Williams.  Sending the letter may save Jeff Holt
> > an 800 mile
> > > > road trip and all the time and expenses involved.  If Jeff Holt makes
> > the
> > > > trip anyway you have a double verification.  If The letter is returned
> > as
> > > > undeliverable you can claim that Jeff is not verified. If
> > Jeff Williams
> > > > doesn't show up for a face to face meeting, you have doubly
> > > > verified that he
> > > > is a fraud as you claim. If you don't send the letter and
> > Jeff Williams
> > > > claims that he somehow missed Jeff Holt at the meeting place, we have
> > made
> > > > zero progress.  And you look even sillier for failing to do what you
> > said
> > > > you would do.
> > > >
> > > > Just do it, Sotiris... send the letter.  I would do it myself
> > (at a far
> > > > lower cost to me, since I am paying your outrageous Canadian
> > postal cost
> > > > anyway).  The only reason that I have not already done so is
> > > > because I don't
> > > > want to risk being subjected to your venomous condemnation as
> > a fraud if
> > I
> > > > have to report that I did indeed receive proof of delivery.
> > > >
> > > > Ron Sherwood
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Sotiris Sotiropoulos" <sotiris@hermesnetwork.com>
> > > > To: "Ron Sherwood" <sherwood@islands.vi>
> > > > Cc: <atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 7:02 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [atlarge-discuss] Re: Sotiris Sotiropoulos FUD
> > follows Hugh
> > > > Blair FUD to: Re: [atlarge-discuss] Re: Sotiris, Where is that
> > Registered
> > > > Restricted Letter? Re: [atlarge-discuss] Provisional Membership
> > Committee
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Ron,
> > > > >
> > > > > In case you hadn't noticed (how could you not?), Jeff Holt
> > has offered
> > a
> > > > > face to face meet-up with our JW.  I defer to his approach
> > as it will
> > > > > conclusively establish the verification of JW.  Now, you
> > can continue
> > > > > calling me names (sticks and stones etc.,), but understand that in
> > light
> > > > > of the offer made by Jeff Holt, I would be happy to let him
> > provide us
> > > > > with conclusive evidence.
> > > > >
> > > > > --Sotiris Sotiropoulos
> > > > >
> > > > > P.S.  BTW, I have nothing personal against JW, Ron, so please do not
> > > > > waste your time and energies trying to make a mountain out of a
> > > > molehill.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ron Sherwood wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >Sotiris:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >My mailing address is a P.O. Box.  It is the only address that you
> > can
> > > > send
> > > > > >mail to.  I am paying for you to send a Restricted
> > Delivery letter to
> > > > Jeff
> > > > > >Williams at his P.O. Box address.  You have said many
> > times that you
> > > > will,
> > > > > >but on every occasion you have reneged on that promise.  It seems
> > that
> > > > your
> > > > > >word is absolutely worthless.  How can you so patently and so
> > blatantly
> > > > show
> > > > > >your willingness to discriminate against someone that you
> > dislike in
> > a
> > > > > >simple process that will cost you nothing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Again, Sotiris, this is nothing to do with whether you like or
> > dislike
> > > > Jeff
> > > > > >Williams. Or whether you want or do not want him to be verified. It
> > is
> > > > about
> > > > > >telling the world that you will send a Restricted mail letter
> > > > to Jeff if
> > > > he
> > > > > >gives you an address to send it to.  You have repeatedly said that
> > you
> > > > will
> > > > > >and have repeatedly made excuses for not doing so.  You are
> > > > showing every
> > > > > >member of this organization that your word means nothing, that
> > > > you place
> > > > > >your own subjective viewpoint before the organizational rules that
> > you
> > > > > >proposed and that you have applied to others.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >If you do not immediately send a Restricted Delivery letter to the
> > > > mailing
> > > > > >address that Jeff Williams provided you will indelibly brand
> > > > yourself as
> > > > a
> > > > > >cheat and a liar and unfit for any office.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Just do it Sotiris. Stop the excuses.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Ron Sherwood
> > > > > >
> > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >From: "Sotiris Sotiropoulos" <sotiris@hermesnetwork.com>
> > > > > >To: "Jeff Williams" <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com>
> > > > > >Cc: <atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de>
> > > > > >Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 11:47 PM
> > > > > >Subject: [atlarge-discuss] Re: Sotiris Sotiropoulos FUD
> > follows Hugh
> > > > Blair
> > > > > >FUD to: Re: [atlarge-discuss] Re: Sotiris, Where is that Registered
> > > > > >Restricted Letter? Re: [atlarge-discuss] Provisional
> > > > Membership Committee
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>A P.O. Box is NOT a proper address.  You live somewhere... please
> > send
> > > > > >>me the addres where you reside.  You can do so offlist if you
> > > > so choose,
> > > > > >>but I will not consider a P.O. box to be a proper, verifiable
> > address.
> > > > > >> There's a reason why mail orders don't deliver to P.O. boxes.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>--Sotiris Sotiropoulos
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>Jeff Williams wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>>Sotiris and all fellow members,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Hugh was incorrect.  The address I gave you 7 times now
> > > > > >>>is my legal and proper Mailing address.  The address for
> > > > > >>>My company is 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. As I have so many
> > > > > >>>times pointed out.
> > > > > >>>My proper Mailing address is and has been for 14 years is:
> > > > > >>>Jeffrey A. Williams
> > > > > >>>p.o. Box 1843
> > > > > >>>Frisco Texas, 75034
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>usps phone # for Dallas and the Frisco area is:
> > > > > >>>1-800-275-8777 - Ask for direct line to the Frisco
> > > > > >>>post office.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>Sotiris Sotiropoulos wrote:
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>>Thanks to Hugh, for pointing out the dilemma involved in pinning
> > Mr.
> > > > > >>>>Jeff Williams down to a fixed address.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>--Sotiris Sotiropoulos
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>Hugh Blair wrote:
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>-----Original Message-----
> > > > > >>>>>>From: Jeff Williams
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>No mail Box's on Route 1,Rual area of Gunter.  Hence why
> > > > > >>>>>>my Mailing address for mail delivery is p.o.. Box 1843 Frisco
> > > > > >>>>>>Texas 75034 and has been for 14 years.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>Been there "for 14 years"? Are you lying now - or then?
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>http://www.fitug.de/icann-europe/0106/msg00019.html
> > > > > >>>>>Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208
> > > > > >>>>>http://dict.regex.info/ipv6/6bone/6bone.mail-1999-05/0060.html
> > > > > >>>>>Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >>>>>http://www.icann.org/comments-mail/comment-dnso/archive/msg00051.html
> > > > > >>>>>Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208
> > > > > >>>>>http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc09/msg01587.html
> > > > > >>>>>Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>http://www.apnic.net/mailing-lists/apnic-talk/archive/2000/02/
> > > > msg00023.h
> > > > t
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >ml
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>>>>Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208
> > > > > >>>>>http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/ietf/Current/msg18671.html
> > > > > >>>>>Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208
> > > > > >>>>>http://archive.nznog.org/2001-07/msg00158.html
> > > > > >>>>>Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>http://lists.research.netsol.com/pipermail/uwho/2001-November/
> > > > 000023.htm
> > > > l
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>>Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>There's 8 *different* lists where you posted an
> > address - within
> > > > > >>>>>the last "14 years" that's different from "Gunter". So
> > when were
> > > > > >>>>>you lying? Then? Now? Are you even in Texas? Kansas? Oz?
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>Just more TEXAS BULL.
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>Hugh
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > atlarge-discuss-unsubscribe@lists.fitug.de
> > > > > >>>>>For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > atlarge-discuss-help@lists.fitug.de
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>--
> > > > > >>>>-----------
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>"The science of jurisprudence regards the state and power as the
> > > > > >>>>ancients regarded fire- namely, as something existing
> > absolutely.
> > > > > >>>>But for history, the state and power are merely phenomena,
> > > > just as for
> > > > > >>>>modern physics fire is not an element but a phenomenon.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>>From this fundamental difference between the view held
> > by history
> > > > > >>>>and that held by jurisprudence, it follows that
> > > > jurisprudence can tell
> > > > > >>>>minutely how in its opinion power should be constituted and what
> > > > > >>>>power- existing immutably outside time- is, but to
> > > > history's questions
> > > > > >>>>about the meaning of the mutations of power in time it
> > can answer
> > > > > >>>>nothing."
> > > > > >>>>                                    --Leo Tolstoy, "War
> > and Peace"
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > atlarge-discuss-unsubscribe@lists.fitug.de
> > > > > >>>>For additional commands, e-mail:
> > atlarge-discuss-help@lists.fitug.de
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>--
> > > > > >>>Jeffrey A. Williams
> > > > > >>>Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 131k
> > > > members/stakeholders strong!)
> > > > > >>>"Be precise in the use of words and expect precision
> > from others" -
> > > > > >>>   Pierre Abelard
> > > > > >>>===============================================================
> > > > > >>>CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security
> > > > > >>>Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
> > > > > >>>E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com
> > > > > >>>Contact Number: 214-244-4827 or 214-244-3801
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>--
> > > > > >>-----------
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>"The science of jurisprudence regards the state and power as the
> > > > > >>ancients regarded fire- namely, as something existing absolutely.
> > > > > >>But for history, the state and power are merely phenomena, just as
> > for
> > > > > >>modern physics fire is not an element but a phenomenon.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>From this fundamental difference between the view held by history
> > > > > >>and that held by jurisprudence, it follows that jurisprudence can
> > tell
> > > > > >>minutely how in its opinion power should be constituted and what
> > > > > >>power- existing immutably outside time- is, but to history's
> > questions
> > > > > >>about the meaning of the mutations of power in time it can answer
> > > > > >>nothing."
> > > > > >>     --Leo Tolstoy, "War and Peace"
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-unsubscribe@lists.fitug.de
> > > > > >>For additional commands, e-mail:
> > atlarge-discuss-help@lists.fitug.de
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >To unsubscribe, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-unsubscribe@lists.fitug.de
> > > > > >For additional commands, e-mail:
> > atlarge-discuss-help@lists.fitug.de
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > -----------
> > > > >
> > > > > "The science of jurisprudence regards the state and power as the
> > > > > ancients regarded fire- namely, as something existing absolutely.
> > > > > But for history, the state and power are merely phenomena,
> > just as for
> > > > > modern physics fire is not an element but a phenomenon.
> > > > >
> > > > > From this fundamental difference between the view held by history
> > > > > and that held by jurisprudence, it follows that
> > jurisprudence can tell
> > > > > minutely how in its opinion power should be constituted and what
> > > > > power- existing immutably outside time- is, but to
> > history's questions
> > > > > about the meaning of the mutations of power in time it can answer
> > > > > nothing."
> > > > >      --Leo Tolstoy, "War and Peace"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-unsubscribe@lists.fitug.de
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-help@lists.fitug.de
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-unsubscribe@lists.fitug.de
> > For additional commands, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-help@lists.fitug.de
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-unsubscribe@lists.fitug.de
> For additional commands, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-help@lists.fitug.de

Regards,

--
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 131k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Be precise in the use of words and expect precision from others" -
    Pierre Abelard
===============================================================
CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com
Contact Number: 214-244-4827 or 214-244-3801



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