Re: [atlarge-discuss] Incorporation & Marginally Useful Insects

[Jeff Williams <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com>]

Joey and all stakeholders or other interested parties,

Joey Borda **star*walker** wrote:

>   Sunday, August 11, 2002 * 2:28 PM EDT USA
>
> Jeff, Todd, Eric & Bruce (& Everyone -- all save Bruce, in response to
> my
> post at http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00468.html since
> he
> fired me up in the first place ;-) ):
>
> At 09:10 PM 8/10/2002 -0700, Jeff Williams wrote (in abbreviated
> form):
> >Joey and all stakeholders or other interested parties,
>
> >Some entering the legal profession do so with the long term goal
> >of becoming a politician.  It is one career path for Lawyers...
>
> The overwhelming preponderance of U.S. Congressmen, Senators, and all
> of
> the various State legislatures are lawyers. Could there be anything
> even
> slightly wrong with this picture?

  No not really.  Indeed you are right though that the majority of
congressmen
and women came from the legal profession.  Nothing wrong with that.
If you don't like them or at least the ones that are your
representatives,
don't vote for them...

>
>
> >This seems a bit of an extreme point of view.  First the medical
> >community is by no means a monopoly.  Second the pharmaceutical
> >industry especially in the past few years, is no monopoly either as
> >new pharmaceutical companies have come along over the past
> >5 years that are quite good...  Inclone of course is not one of those
>
> >good ones...  >;)
>
> Extreme? Perhaps.
>
> If so, it may be an extreme reaction to extreme conditions.

  Perhaps so...

>
>
> More likely its people’s views that it’s extreme because it’s outside
> the
> permissibly thinkable, let alone expressible. It sets off the alarm
> bells
> of fear, of the not previously thought or spoken. It has the quality
> of
> heresy, and I will surely be damned for thinking and saying these
> things,
> and if others are not careful to cry out heretic they will surely burn
> in
> hell along with me. ;-)

  ROFLMAO.  Well your are obviously not a heretic.

>
>
> I’ll be clearer about my assertion of monopoly or monopolistic
> practices as
> briefly and as “extremely” as I can.
>
> First, the pharmaceutical industry is extended extremely long-term
> patents
> on life-saving drugs and only they (at least in this county) can
> produce
> those drugs. There is no requirement that they license production of
> the
> drug to others. That’s monopoly! Rather transparently justified as
> covering
> their research and development costs supposedly, when most drugs come
> out
> of public and university health research.

  Ok you are of course entitled to your opinion.  But what if anything
does
this dialog have to do with the ICANNATLARGE.COM?

>
>
> What do you think the threat by world governments, such as South
> Africa and
> now a host of others, to produce AIDS drugs, e.g., generically is
> about,
> and why our national policy has become to rush in and save the day for
> the
> drug industry with various threats and finally concession agreements.
> That’s a response to threat against monopoly.

  Again this is hardly the forum for this discussion...

>
>
> How is it that I can buy the prescription drug Lipitor at 30% below
> U.S.
> prices out of Hong Kong, by the same manufacturers?
>
> Second, the fact that in this country I cannot buy necessary
> medications
> without a doctor’s prescription (which adds to the cost of the other
> monopoly by the way) is a monopolistic practice. That I cannot get an
> x-ray
> without a doctor’s prescription is monopolistic.
>
> Those drugs I buy from Hong Kong are without my doctor’s prescription
> (oh
> yes he writes them, but I don’t need them nor the added expense of my
> seeing him as often). If I were in Mexico, or had a friend there to do
> it
> for me, I could walk into any pharmacy and buy anything I needed
> without
> prescription. The same in Taiwan. And at a fraction of the cost.
>
> In most of the world the greatest numbers of babies are born without
> an
> attending physician or hospitalization. Many are just “dropped” in the
>
> dirt. Do you know that dirt doesn’t hurt new borns? Or with midwives
> or
> family members in attendance
>
> Try that here. Giving birth is not even a disease, but we treat it
> like
> one, regardless of the health of the mother and the in utero infant.
> How do
> you think this comes to be?
>
> Rather effectively marketed need to be answered by a monopolistic
> practice.
> And for all that we don’t even have the world’s lowest infant
> mortality rate!
>
> Ahh, now I get to my favorite, to talk about the practice and
> profession of
> law.
>
> Do you know there wasn’t always a Bar? That there weren’t law schools.
> How
> did we ever get along?!
>
> People interested in the profession simply hung out with, apprenticed
> themselves to lawyers, people grown famous for their “practice” of
> law.
>
> As late as when I was in law school in 1967, one could still learn THE
> LAW
> that way, and qualify for the tests. There was such a young man in my
> law
> classes, taking the classes he was interested in, not to get the
> degree or
> status, but to get the knowledge he sought and otherwise could not get
> in
> Pittsburgh of those days any other way.
>
> Day in, day out, he worked with lawyers learning the law, and
> otherwise was
> a parking garage attendant.
>
> Ah you say, but things change, and the law changes, and things get
> more
> complex and so on and so on and so on.
>
> You bet they do, but not quite in the way you think. Everyone
> intuitively
> understands the needless complexity and overreach of law. It used to
> be
> single greatest cause of that complexity was simply its historicity.
> American law, particularly real estate, tort law and contract law is
> precedential, based all the way back to William the Conqueror.
>
> These days legal complexity is insured by the profession itself having
>
> monopolistic control over the passage of law itself via their
> preponderance
> of seats at all levels of government, not merely the Congress and
> State
> legislatures.
>
> The fact of the matter is that much of the arcane complexity of the
> practice of law could be eliminated with the stroke of a pen. But
> don’t
> expect them to do it. They could, but they won’t.
>
> The AMA, ABA, and APA (American Pharmaceutical Association -- I dare
> not
> add the MCAA do I? ;-) ) are even more effective than the Teamsters
> Union
> in staying on top of what they have and getting more of what they
> want. And
> they’re no schlepps.
>
> That’s monopoly power at work.
>
> >Interesting view and comparison.   Thankfully it(Your view) is not
> >widely shared...
>
> Yeah, well, I don’t mind standing alone. I’ve done that most of my
> life in
> one way or another. ;-) Come to think of it, maybe it's the other way
> around and that frees me to think the the "unthinkable." May it always
> be so.
>
>
> ----------
>
> At 08:29 PM 8/10/2002 -0700, eric@hi-tek.com wrote [in Hatred and
> Outreach
>   at http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00471.html]:
>
> >Whoa Bro,
> >
> >Hatred is harmful and contageous.
> >Please look at the fingers pointed at you when you point one in
> anger.
> >I cannot know your life but can feel your pain and hatred when you
> write.
>
> Maybe it will surprise, then, that I have an agreeably cantankerous,
> irascible and respectfully mutual and equal relationship with my
> doctors.
> We engage each other with great humor and fondness.
>
> That might not have always been the case with my primary physician had
> I
> not right at the first asked him how it would be for him to work with
> me, a
> gay man. Or at a next appointment, to which he arrived 45 minutes
> late,
> when I asked him if he liked to piss off all of his clients by being
> late. ;-)
>
> No Eric, I don’t hate doctors, not even as a class. Nor do I hate
> lawyers,
> or the people who make our pills. Or the teamsters; I especially like
> them.
>
> What I hate is being manipulated by monopoly or monopolistic predatory
>
> practices, no matter what power group holds it. By your measure or
> misunderstanding I’d have a rather hot hate for Bill Gates every time
> I’m
> reminded of his monopoly and am forced to use his products. (Linux is
> still
> too challenging for me so let’s not go there.)
>
> Actually I admire him, to a point. I’d love to be in the same room
> with me
> for a while. Yet there is such a thing as too much greed, too much
> predation instead of innovation, and a pursuit of the dream of dying
> having
> accumulated the most toys that injuriously affects us all.
>
> His unending accumulation of capital on the “backs” of many third
> world
> people I cannot find admirable. I find it opportunistic and
> despicable. Is
> it hateful for me to say that?
>
> He’s as close as we could come to asserting that somehow my “hate” is
> personal against an individual in the terms we’ve been talking, and I
> simply don’t hate him.
>
> >Hating all in the legal profession and all in the medical profession
> is a
> >little
> >troublesome.
> >Please limit your hatred to a few that you know, lest some be
> justified in
> >hating
> >everyone like you, because of your actions.
>
> Here I’ve mostly already answered.
>
> In the terms we’ve been talking about I’ve using the word profession
> synonymous with institution or organization or association, not as
> class of
> people.
>
> There is for me a very big difference. People are real, organizations
> are
> not. People can feel hurt, organizations cannot. People can bleed,
> organizations cannot.
>
> That the same cannot be said for their for-profit stockholders, who
> actively choose to engage in rigged legalized gambling, my heart goes
> out
> to them when they get wiped out and bleed, but not for their greed
> that put
> them in the game in the first place.
>
> Organizations, especially legally incorporated ones are artificial
> “creatures” chartered by a state or nation, and are in and of
> themselves
> without souls. Their sole purpose for being is to limit the financial
> liability of those who inhabit them, and of late their criminal
> liability
> as well. They are the casinos, and the game is often rigged.
>
> As for my actions I have never, at least not since I was a child if
> then,
> knowingly or willingly injured anybody, not even in feeling, other
> than
> what has been lovingly required in coming to know my truth in personal
>
> relationships with others.
>
> The only physical violence I’ve ever engaged in was in response to an
> overwhelming threat on my life through others’ use of violence.
>
> >This path should not be followed and not tolerated by our civilized
> group.
> >I do not know this person who calls themself starwalker
> >but I can register hate mail when i see it.
> >Be careful here folks.
> >
> >eric
>
> I have to say, Eric, that your assertion in the above paragraph kind
> of
> takes my breath away.
>
> If you are a doctor or lawyer or in the pharmaceutical business, I’m
> sorry.
> What I wrote was not a personal attack on you, or anyone else.
>
> I wish I could say I’ve gotten to know you better through your post,
> but I
> cannot. I am perplexed.
>
> Perhaps we’ll get to know each other better and more cordially the
> next time.
>
>
> ----------
>
> At 11:14 PM 8/10/2002 -0700, todd glassey wrote [in Re:
> [atlarge-discuss]
> Incorporation & Marginally Useful Insects at
> http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00478.html]:
>
> >Go out to the Secretary of State's website for your favorite state,
> and
> >follow the step by step directions.
> >
> >Todd
>
> Todd:
>
> I’m glad you added this, for those of us in the U.S. at least. When I
> was
> doing my incorporations in the early ’80’s such access was not
> possible.
>
> I completely omitted it (unintentionally) because I was so focused on
> lobbying for non-U.S. incorporation. ;-)
>
>
> ----------
>
> At Sat, 10 Aug 2002 22:56:40 -0700, Jeff Williams wrote again [in
> abbreviated form at
> http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00472.html]:
>
> >Hatred is fundamentally wrong.  Hatred is crippling to positive
> progress,
> >unproductive, disruptive, and cannot effect positive change, which is
>
> >needed in many areas...
>
> For me, hate is fundamentally destructive of life and all living
> things, of
> both the hater and the hated. To wit, Matthew Sheperd's death and the
> two
> young men’s lives lost who hated him, and themselves, and in killing
> him
> attempted to kill something in themselves as well.
>
> The similar citations possible are just too staggering to pursue here.
>
> Hatred, true hatred, not simply dislike, comes of the phenomenon
> studied
> specifically in Baboons, and inherited in our genes, the mechanism
> that is:
>
> “See the stranger, fear the stranger, hate the stranger.” Of course
> this
> conflates the complexity of what happens a little (the rage response),
> but
> is simple to witness and is particularly striking in the ferocity of
> attack
> in Baboons, but certainly outdone by us humans.
>
> As evolved as we’ve become, with empathy and compassion being the
> latest
> layered capacity of the human brain (and the least used), we still
> have the
> capacity to devolve, in an instant, to any threat, perceived or real.
> It is
> testimony to the strength of the survival mechanism, predating all but
>
> perhaps sexual reproduction.
>
>
> ----------
>
> At 10:35 PM 8/10/2002 -0700, eric@hi-tek.com again wrote [in Hatred
> and
> Outreach at http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00475.html]:
>
> >I will stand up and die, quickly, to stop any group hatred against
> another
> >group.
>
> Eric, I commend you for your principled and passionate stand. I hope
> it
> will not have to come to that in this group. I'm as certain as I can
> be
> that it will not come to that in this group.
>
> And I pray that should you meet up with any of the increasing number
> neo-Nazis groups and fanatical religious brigades (those that would
> kill us
> to save us) around the world that you have a lot of friends with you
> and
> overwhelming firepower.
>
> >If this group stands for the hatred of ICANN, Lawyers, Doctors, Gays,
> Latinos,
> >Communists or democrats, Then I will not quit the group but if need
> be die
> >destroying it.
>
> ICANN is an organization. The rest are not necessarily, rather
> individual
> people recognizable as having some affiliation with each other. As to
> how
> hated ICANN may be in this group, if at all, I cannot say. I see what
> they
> have done, are doing, as despicable.
>
> More than that Gays and Latinos are each recognizable classes
> (non-hierarchical) of people with intrinsic unifying characteristics
> and
> qualities that go beyond voluntary affiliation.
>
> Being in one of those classes I am pleased and gratified that you will
>
> stand with me in opposition to the hatred, discrimination and violence
>
> directed toward me simply because I am gay.
>
> >Attacks on JW are personal and different.  But attacks on whole
> blocks of
> >individuals is sick.
> >Vint Cerf is and engineer, Should we then hate Karl and Jefsey?
> >
> >I am most bothered by this attack on groups.
> >
> >Eric
>
> I have well and respectfully answered you regarding “attacks” on
> groups,
> which is your characterization, which I am agreeably in disagreement
> with you.
>
> But... but... here I have to disagree with you emphatically. I see
> things
> the opposite.
>
> You cannot harm a group, only an individual or individuals in a group,
> and
> then only in person (allowing for omitting libel or slander). Harming
> individuals in any group, requires some form of presence-access to
> that
> person personally.
>
> This is to be distinguished from harming a group through the
> commission of
> terroristic violence to an individual member of that identifiable
> group for
> the purpose of terrifying every member of that group that the same
> thing
> can and will happen to them if they should not keep “in their place.”
>
> On the contrary, except for the recitation of facts reasonedly, if
> sometimes impassionedly (I like passion myself; who would’a guessed?),
> to
> discredit JW’s claims and credibility, I disagree with your suggestion
> that
> somehow attacking JW personally is OK.
>
> Fortunately, for the most part (if at all, as I haven’t read
> everything so
> I won’t say with 100% certainty) I haven’t seen “attacks” on JW in
> this
> list intended to harm him, but instead asserting truth contrary to his
>
> espoused truth.
>
> And from what I’ve seen JW takes pretty good care of himself.
>
> Notwithstanding that, genuine assaults on individuals are NOT OK with
> me,
> nor do I think it should be for anyone else. Nor do I think that
> anyone
> else here does. I have not seen it happening, as fiery as some of the
> exchanges have been, in my short time paying attention to this group.
>
>
> ----------
>
> Last but not least... at 04:12 PM 8/11/2002 -0700, Jeff Williams wrote
>
> again [in Hatred and Outreach at
> http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00502.html]:
>
> >Eric and all stakeholders or other interested parties,
> >
> >Attacks of various types are not necessarily a demonstration of
> >Hatred.
> >
> >Groups are made up of individuals.  Reasonable attacks on what
> >those individuals and/or groups are to be expected and indeed
> >perhaps necessary in order to expound upon and issue or a
> >point of one kind or another.  These sorts of attacks are not
> >necessarily a expression of Hatred.
> >
> >eric@hi-tek.com wrote:
> >
> > > I will stand up and die, quickly, to stop any group hatred against
>
> > another group.
>
> Exactly. They were not meant as attacks, rather as angry, passionate
> assertions, out of my experience of how some of the world, a very
> important
> part of my world, works from my perspective. Angry because I am
> largely
> impotent to do anything about them except to express them.
>
> I do what I can locally, e.g. with my doctor as I’ve described. I said
> what
> I said to him (see above) because my time IS as important as his time,
> and
> I will not waste it waiting on him.
>
> But by and large I can barely throw feathers at the monoliths, so they
> will
> not come to much harm from me by that route.
>
> To finally conclude, I do not waste my time hating. I’ve long
> recognized
> that I only hurt myself with that. Besides, I’m a lover. ;-)
>
> Cordially and collegiately to all… /s/ Joey
>
> [Forgive any typos or misspeaks or mangled words. I just don't have
> anything left to proofread one more time. Besides, it's good enough
> for
> non-profit work in this slightly less than formal venue. ;-)  ;-) ]
>
> [Finally completed at Sunday, August 11, 2002 * 7:11 PM EDT USA]
>
> Put your action where your... err... speech is!
>
> Support democratic operation of the Internet! Go to
> http://www.icannatlarge.com and Join ICANN At Large!
>
> Then create your personal volunteer profile
> at  http://www.icannatlarge.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=19 and tell
> everyone
> what you have done, and/or can do, and/or are willing to do -- NOW!
> :-)
>
> (Please at least book mark the above links.)
>
>

Regards,

--
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 127k members/stakeholders strong!)
CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com
Contact Number: 214-244-4827 or 972-244-3801
Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208



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