Re: [atlarge-discuss] $1 verification.

["James S. Tyre" <jstyre@jstyre.com>]

At 04:23 AM 5/25/2003 -0400, Sotiris Sotiropoulos wrote:


> James S. Tyre wrote:
>
> > Think of what I'm saying as being similar to the PGP ring of trust (which 
> > is unique to the Internet), but better.  As it happens, I've never gotten 
> > around to having my key signed by anyone, because I usually only use it 
> > for confidential attorney-client communications, where the client already 
> > knows I'm me.  But suppose Karl signed it, and that's all you knew.  Is 
> > it not better if Karl says "I've worked very closely with Tyre for a long 
> > time, sometimes he's very weird, but he is who he says he is?"  If all 
> > you knew was that he signed my key, you wouldn't know if, for example, he 
> > did it in a drunken stupor, with no real idea of who I am.  ;-)
> >
> > Then add on notes from, say, John Gilmore, Barbara Simons, Brewster 
> > Kahle, you get the picture.  Not a 100% guarantee, but closer, I think, 
> > than PayPal, a digital certificate or a PGP key-signing.
> I am paying attention.  I have a few questions for you: 1)By what 
> mechanism do you suppose such a note-signing method could be implmented?
That's the easy one.  I simply ask Karl, John, whomever, to email a note to 
this list, or if there is some sort of verification committee, to 
them.  There are plenty of folks here who can determine, with a high level 
of certainty, if the note from "Karl" is forged - including emailing him 
back and asking him.



> > The "key" is for the person doing the vouching to state the relevant 
> > circumstance.  If you vouch for Alice saying you met her once briefly, 
> > that's one thing.  If you vouch for Alice saying you've worked with her 
> > for three years, that's another.  And your vouching for Alice does not 
> > extend to Alice's vouching for Bob.
> 2) So who will decide who gets to vouch for who, and how many vouchers 
> will there ultimately be?
That's the very hard one - as I said myself, I would accept vouching from 
you, Joop, some others, but not from all on this list.  This is not 
something to which I've given any real thought to before today, it's just 
something I began to think about when you presented the either/or of PayPal 
or certificate, with no other options.  With no offense intended, that 
stuck me as being way too limited, so I've been struggling with other 
possibly acceptable options.


> > Trust in the person doing the vouching is relevant, as with PGP key-signing.
> >
> > I wouldn't presume to know what notarial requirements are in Canada (or 
> > any other country), but at least here in California, all you need to do 
> > is produce a state driver's license or equivalent ID, which are as easy 
> > as pie to make or obtain.  Others certainly may differ, but I'd put much 
> > more trust in your statement that you've worked with Alice for three 
> > years than in Alice producing the equivalent of a notarized document, 
> > particularly if the notarial acknowledgment is as near-worthless wherever 
> > she may be as it is here.
> 3) Considering your antipathy for Paypal (whatever your reasons), would 
> you perhaps be more amenable to having Alice issue a personal cheque of 
> $1.00 as a donation to join this organization?  A personal cheque once 
> cleared by her bank would be pretty solid verification of her identity, 
> and she'd be helping the organization in two ways.
>
> [If I had a friend, Alice, who didn't have a digital certificate and 
> didn't want to use Paypal or something similar, I'm certain that Alice 
> wouldn't mind making out a personal cheque for exactly $1.00 to a 
> worthwhile cause she intended to support of her own volition.]
Actually, I like that alternative a lot.  Of course, the organization would 
have to have a bank account first, something discussed at length in other 
contexts, but I'll assume for this purpose that it will happen.  The only 
drawback that immediately comes to mind is the length of time it would take 
for that check to clear, particularly if it's going from one country to 
another.  I do have reservations about last-minute joiners running for 
office, but I wouldn't want to discourage last-minute joiners from joining, 
and the run-up to an election is a natural time to get new members.  (I 
don't know about other countries, but here in the U.S., there's always a 
last-minute surge in voter registration before an election.)

That's not to say it's a bad idea, I meant the first sentence of the prior 
graf - just that it isn't without it's drawbacks.  For obvious reasons, the 
vouching mechanism could, and presumably would, move significantly faster 
(assuming that it is otherwise tenable).

--------------------------------------------------------------------
James S. Tyre                               mailto:jstyre@jstyre.com
Law Offices of James S. Tyre          310-839-4114/310-839-4602(fax)
10736 Jefferson Blvd., #512               Culver City, CA 90230-4969
Co-founder, The Censorware Project             http://censorware.net


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