[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
Re: [atlarge-discuss] Some points of view - Limits and common sense
Richard and all fellow members,
Richard Henderson wrote:
> I think it's fair to say that English is emerging as the dominant world
> language in the world today, but that gives English-speakers all the more
> responsibility to respect and protect the interests and needs of the
> majority of people in the world for whom English is most certainly not their
> first language. Clearly, at an early stage, our own websites should offer at
> least limited information in a wide range of other languages.
I agree with your thought and intention here by in large, so to speak
Richard. I am sure most thoughtful english first language speakers
do as well. However this does not address the comments/remarks
to which I posted and you responded to here, from below.
>
>
> With power comes responsibility (and, ideally, accountability).
Very much agreed. However as the members of ICANNATLARGE.ORG
presently have no power of any kind such a principal doesn't yet
apply. Perhaps someday it shall.
>
>
> In my vision of the @large, as a network, local chapters and subdomains of
> our website would be in the language of the people involved in that locality
> (hopefully with a reciprocal translation in English); and on the 'common' or
> 'shared' pages (homepage etc) there would be a recognition that English is
> the default language, but with mirrored pages at the click of a button to
> Spanish, French, Chinese, etc etc etc
Very much agreed here as well. But again this comment does not
address my comments by in large below either. However as
we also do not have the resources to effect this proper view to date,
and the fact as Sotiris pointed out that English is the internationally
recognized language, we must first and foremost conduct our
deliberations, discussions, and debates on this forum in english,
or the poster whom is not a native english speaker that has
trouble with doing so, should provide without condescending
precursors, the english version of his/her post.
>
>
> Communication on a day-to-day basis within working groups or the panel is
> more of a challenge, and the experience of the past year has shown we should
> not underestimate the potential for misunderstanding.
Agreed. And using the international language of English aids greatly
in limiting such misunderstandings.
>
>
> With co-operation, we can unite users from all over the world. Without it,
> we remain fragmented and ineffectual.
Very much agreed here as well. As INEGroup learned as an organization
several years ago now, cooperation is a two way street, and creating
or promoting misunderstandings and/or poor communications in
the use of language or languages in discussions/diliberations/debates,
is a sure way of becoming ineffectual as well as distrustful.
>
>
> Richard Henderson
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jeff Williams <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com>
> To: J-F C. (Jefsey) Morfin <jefsey@club-internet.fr>
> Cc: Sotiris Sotiropoulos <sotiris@hermesnetwork.com>; atlarge discuss list
> <atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 12:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [atlarge-discuss] Some points of view - Limits and common sense
>
> > Jefsey and all fellow members,
> >
> > Your remarks and comments in both languages below sound
> > good, but are just so much "Hogwash", Jefsey. Sotiris is right.
> > Even many, if not most Chinese Web sites for instance have
> > english versions. All of the chinese government folks I converse
> > with speak english or have translators to provide english versions
> > of their E-Mail to me or any member of our organization.
> >
> > And even worse, your final remark or declaration below,
> > "When one accepts the vote of someone, one must accept him entirely.",
> > is beyond the limits of common sense. First of all not all votes are
> > made by "him's" and secondly not all votes are made for "Him's",
> > third no reasonable person, voter, or candidate, expects, or is
> > expected to except the voter or the candidate entirely, not even
> > in France! Sheeesh!
> >
> > J-F C. (Jefsey) Morfin wrote:
> >
> > > On 04:00 27/05/03, Sotiris Sotiropoulos said:
> > > >Just in case you have not noticed, this organization's discussion
> language
> > > >is English. ICANN's discussion language is English (see
> > > >http://www.icann.org/ and let me know where you find any Spanish). I
> am
> > > >happy for you that you speak Spanish well, but you will find that
> Spanish
> > > >will not help you to communicate with most of the members of this
> > > >organization, and your English is certainly not of sufficient quality
> for
> > > >advanced discussion(s) and deliberation(s). To be honest, your English
> is
> > > >so poor that I could not understand what your ideas are, in your brief
> two
> > > >week history among us. How can you expect to play any kind of a role
> as a
> > > >Panel member when your ability to effectively and succintly communicate
> > > >with most of the members (and fellow panelists) is in question?
> > >
> > > Cet argument semble raisonable mais il est en fait spécieux. Comment
> > > veux-tu pouvoir travailler dans un contexte international en ne
> respectant
> > > pas d'abord tes interlocuteurs. De façon totalement honnête ton anglais
> est
> > > la plus part du temps copréhensible, mais pas tes intentions ni tes
> > > motivations. Ceci signifie que tu es sans doute le membre que l'on
> comprend
> > > ici le moins. A commencer pourquoi es tu toujours là alors que _rien_ ne
> > > semble te satisfaire ? Personne n'a jamais dit que nous parlions
> anglais
> > > (en fait sur mon Word je memet en mode "américain" - l'anglais me serait
> > > conceptuellement plus familier): nous parlons de façon à être compris
> par
> > > tous (une lingua franca), c'est à dire _aussi_ par les moins ouverts.
> > >
> > > Il existe une règle que comprends chaque marin, scout ou fantassin, un
> > > convoi ou une troup avance à la vitesse du plus lent. Il y en a toujours
> > > qui râlent aulieu d'aider. Ils ajoutent à la confusion et en fait
> > > ralentissent encore plus les choses. Chaque Amiral, Guide ou Colonel le
> > > sait bien.
> > >
> > > Lorsqu'on accepte la voix de quelqu'un on doit l'accepter tout entier.
> > >
> > > PS in the case you would not have understood this I will help you
> understand:
> > >
> > > This argument seems reasonable. Actually it is erroneous. How do you
> want
> > > to work in an international context in not respecting first your
> > > interlocutors. Honestly your English is most of the time understandable,
> > > but not your intentions nor your motivations. This means that you are
> > > probably the Member one understand the least. The first question being
> why
> > > are yo still here while _nothing_ seems to make you happy? No one ever
> said
> > > that we spoke English (actually on my Word I switch to "American" -
> > > "English" would be conceptually more familliar): we try to speak in a
> way
> > > understood by everyone. A lingua franca. That is a way to be understood
> > > also by the least open minded.
> > >
> > > There is a rule that every seaman, scout or soldier understands, a
> convoy
> > > or a troop proceeds at the speed of the slowest. There are always some
> to
> > > protest instead of helping. They add to confusion and actually slow down
> > > the whole process. Each Comodore, Scout Girl or Colonel knows it well.
> > >
> > > When one accepts the vote of someone, one must accept him entirely.
> > > jfc
> > >
> > > >--Sotiris Sotiropoulos
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >A/S Mauro D. Ríos wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>Estimado Sotiris,
> > > >>
> > > >>Mi inglés es malo, si, muy malo, ¿y tu español?, ¿por qué debo hablar
> > > >>inglés y no tú español?. Cómo piensas trabajar en una organización
> > > >>global si no hablas español o chino (para ser realista con las
> > > >>mayorías) ?. Es mi español el problema o las ideas que no compartes?
> > > >>
> > > >>Te agradezco tu sinceridad. Te repito que si tanto te molesto, dímelo
> > > >>y consideraré retirarme, no quiero ser un estorbo.
> > > >>
> > > >>Muchas gracias por tu comentario,
> > > >>saludos
> > > >>Mauro.-
> > > >>
> > > >>---- english ----
> > > >>
> > > >>Dear Sotiris,
> > > >>
> > > >>If you don't want me to work in the organization, please tell it to me
> > > >>and I promise you to consider to retire.
> > > >>
> > > >>My English is bad, yer, very bad, and your Spanish?, why should I
> > > >>speak English and not you Spanish?. How do you plan to work in a
> > > >>global organization if you don't speak Spanish or Chinese (to be
> > > >>realistic for the majorities)?. Is my Spanish the problem or the ideas
> > > >>that you don't share?.
> > > >>
> > > >>I thank you your sincerity. I repeat you that if so much I bother you,
> > > >>tell it to me and I will consider to retire, I don't want to be a
> > > >>nuisance.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >To unsubscribe, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-unsubscribe@lists.fitug.de
> > > >For additional commands, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-help@lists.fitug.de
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >---
> > > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > >Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 19/05/03
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-unsubscribe@lists.fitug.de
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-help@lists.fitug.de
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > --
> > Jeffrey A. Williams
> > Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 131k members/stakeholders strong!)
> > "Be precise in the use of words and expect precision from others" -
> > Pierre Abelard
> > ================================================================
> > CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security
> > Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
> > E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com
> > Contact Number: 214-244-4827 or 214-244-3801
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-unsubscribe@lists.fitug.de
> > For additional commands, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-help@lists.fitug.de
> >
Regards,
--
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 131k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Be precise in the use of words and expect precision from others" -
Pierre Abelard
================================================================
CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com
Contact Number: 214-244-4827 or 214-244-3801
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-unsubscribe@lists.fitug.de
For additional commands, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-help@lists.fitug.de