Re: [atlarge-discuss] as WE wish (wa : As the Chair wishes...)

["Richard Henderson" <richardhenderson@ntlworld.com>]

Once again, Jefsey is voicing the vision which I find moving and inspiring.
This is a vision of a REAL community of networks, and network of
communities. It is about the reality of lots of little efforts, lots of
local get-togethers, lots of different but supporting initiatives - which
are worth it in themselves, not mainly for what they politically achieve
(though I think this vision can lead to a change of mindset and have
impact).

I also agree with Jefsey about the membership lists. I would personally
prefer caution (and specific voted allocation) over distribution of the
lists. I have said that I would personally like access to the list for
Outreach purposes. But that is for the panel to decide.

I was asking access for myself. I do not personally think the mailing list
should just be distributed to all 11 panel members. I do not personally
support that, though I think I've been listed as supporting that. I think
that was a misunderstanding.

What I support right now is sending out a vote about our name - and I
believe Joop might be prepared to do that for us without the need to release
the mailing-list to all 11 panel members. We just need to get that name
chosen.

I'm encouraged because it seems like we'll achieve that in the coming week.
However, I have to be honest to my beliefs. I do not think that has to be
linked to releasing the mailing list to the whole panel. I think we have a
'duty of care' when it comes to handling other people's privacy and details.
I probably sound hypocritical because if I'm asking for access it sounds
like I'm saying that I'm trustworthy but others aren't. That's not what I
mean. I just mean that if 2 or 3 or 4 people have a list of private details,
there's a chance those details will get released. If you have 11 people with
the mailing list, you have 3 or 4 times the likelihood of the private
details being released.

It only takes one discontented person, one angry person, and who knows what
damage could be done.

So I favour limiting access to the mailing-list simply to people who need it
to carry out specific functions. And even then - as in my case - it may be
that I have to content myself by sending messages by proxy through a
list-holder. I don't know.

Right now, I'm just looking forward to knowing what the membership wants to
call its organisation.

There is a danger - given quite a lot of 'sleeping' members (or are they
wide awake but just 'lurking'?) - that the vote could be quite arbitrary, if
people are presented with a list of names, but haven't been presented with
the arguments for those names. But anyway, we'll see. One thing's for sure.

We have to have a name!

Richard

----- Original Message -----
From: J-F C. (Jefsey) Morfin <jefsey@club-internet.fr>
To: Satyajit Gupta <icheckemail@indiatimes.com>
Cc: <atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de>
Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 9:12 PM
Subject: [atlarge-discuss] as WE wish (wa : As the Chair wishes...)


> Dear Satyajit,
> we all are learning how to develop the @large. It is actually a key task
> for the Internet. I would even say it is to develop the real Internet.
With
> all the countries, all the cultures, all the different styles, all the
> interests. This will continue (if the IETF iDN task force plays well) with
> the natural languages being supported by the DNS, etc..
>
> It is true that Joanna is learning too. And we learn how to work together
> and how to support her. And from her: did you ever chaired @large effort?
I
> did not. She took the job, I did not. Off hats!
>
> I am certainly upset too at some actions of her. And I too do not hesitate
> to tell her. Since you made your protest public, I am making mine too so
> you see you are not alone and the members that we do not hide anything,
but
> also that there is not a split in the Panel. This is transparency and that
> effort is to be a plus for us all. It takes times, sorry but we only are
human.
>
> I have proposed many things and I am disregarded too.
> The whole process is disappointing? True.
> We could move much faster? True.
> We could be far better organized and efficient? True.
> The panel members do not even understand the obvious? True.
>
> But just a minute ... we are ones of them. Each of us. We are not building
> a brilliant system for the world to see (at least right now). We are
> building "us".
>
> And that IS what exciting and great. Because at the end of the day "we"
are
> the network. And once we are established, we will manage it together. A
> network is just that: to be together. We will run the root if we want, we
> will develop standards. We will relate with ISPs, etc.. no just us, but
all
> of us, all those we will join where they are - not them joining us. This
is
> slow, this is frustrating, this is a lot of things, but I do think that at
> the end of the day - as Joey would say - it is illuminating and great.
>
>
> Now, Satyajit, you have solutions in some areas. I have others in other
> areas. Joanna has in some areas of her. etc. It will certainly take time
> before every of us understand the obvious from the others. Before we tune
> our propositions so they fit others' expectations. But each time we do
> that, we build something strong and stable. And we can be proud of it.
>
> I must be candid, Joanna did upset me many times in the past and now. And
I
> certainly upset her more often.  The, I learned her stamina during the BoD
> campaign. I heard what she said in Montevideo.
>
> Joop was a good friend at times and at other times he insulted me. I
fought
> his icannatlagre.com control. But I do think he is right over the mailing
> list right now and the panel wrong. And I do trust him. Brothers at arms
is
> what we build.
>
> I campaigned against Danny when he was a very poor Chair for the GA (the
> Chair is always very poor) and I believe Danny is just a great future
Chair
> for the SME Constituency.
>
> Did I not upset you with my first mail to you?
>
> Judith is certainly upsetting me at wanting to confuse a Wiki with
> everything which is not a wiki, and I certainly upset her at telling her
> that a wiki is a blackboard where everyone contributes, not a mail, not an
> ICQ, not a web page, etc. And sometime I will eventually understand what
> she wants to say .....
>
> YJ Park is a person I do respect a lot for all what she accomplished at
the
> NC, at the Minc, at NCDNHC. I support her a lot of the coming event in
> Montreux ... but I certainly object to her push for conference calls.
Every
> one knows that I will always exclude myself from such exercises. And then
?
>
> This is the way we build.
>
> Look at Eric, Joey, Erik, Judyth, etc. etc.. AMon us you have a very
> important role as every of us. You represent, with Vivek, a great culture,
> a large country while at the same time you cannot afford a costly access.
> So you represent the interests of people we want to defend too, but of who
> you live the problems. Only you can tell us about the outreach there. You
> want to deal with Incorporation and Funding. No one in our group can
better
> defend the interest of our largest @large potential community: those who
> are not yet Internet enlighten users, as Eric wants to represent the
> "dotcommers".
>
> We build. We build together.
>
> IETF has an expression: "rough consensus". In a slightly different
meaning,
> this is rough consensus i here, sometimes swell, sometimes rough. And this
> is GOOD ! This is real democracy. Democracy is not that much votes and
> transparency; it is the voice of the people.
>
> You expressed your voice, I expressed mine. So many others did and I hope
> will. Now, using you "nay" let try to help ourselves into what we urgently
> need: a working motion system where we can propose motions.
>
> Is that OK with us?
> jfc
>
>
>
>
> On 19:54 05/09/02, Satyajit Gupta said:
>
>
> >  Dear Joanna,
> >
> >  I was not well and I informed you of the same BUT I did NOT offer to
> > step down as Co-ordinator of the WG on Incorporation & Funding. On the
> > contrary, I said I did NOT wish to be replaced when you unilaterally
> > offered to replace me.
> >
> >  Simultaneously, I requested you for more information on the
> > Incorporation and Funding work already going on which you have not yet
> > bothered to answer by replying to my email. This is why I am forced to
> > use the publicly archived mailing list and AGAIN request you to keep me
> > informed.
> >
> >  I am only too happy to reply to you publicly if it means that you do
not
> > get to blatantly distort my words. I shall continue to publicly demand
> > the necessary information which neither you nor anyone else has the
right
> > to withhold!
> >
> >  As for personal attacks on me, I do not even wish to acknowledge them
> > and thus get into petty slanging matches which seem to be their forte...
> >
> >  I am very disappointed that the democratic, open and transparent forum
> > that we foresaw in the past has failed to materialize.
> >
> >  Remember, an enlightened despot is STILL a despot!
> >
> >  Regards,
> >
> >  Satyajit.
> >
> >
> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Indiatimes at
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> >
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