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RE: [atlarge-discuss] as WE wish (wa : As the Chair wishes...)
I really don't want and certainly don't need the membership list. But I'm
willing to accept and file it if that's what it takes for Joop to release
the list for a ballot to go out.
There didn't appear to be any other option that wouldn't cause further
delay.
J
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Judith Oppenheimer
http://JudithOppenheimer.com
http://ICBTollFreeNews.com
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212 684-7210, 1 800 The Expert
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Henderson [mailto:richardhenderson@ntlworld.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 6:08 PM
> To: Satyajit Gupta; J-F C. (Jefsey) Morfin
> Cc: atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de
> Subject: Re: [atlarge-discuss] as WE wish (wa : As the Chair
> wishes...)
>
>
> Once again, Jefsey is voicing the vision which I find moving
> and inspiring.
> This is a vision of a REAL community of networks, and network of
> communities. It is about the reality of lots of little
> efforts, lots of
> local get-togethers, lots of different but supporting
> initiatives - which
> are worth it in themselves, not mainly for what they
> politically achieve
> (though I think this vision can lead to a change of mindset and have
> impact).
>
> I also agree with Jefsey about the membership lists. I would
> personally
> prefer caution (and specific voted allocation) over
> distribution of the
> lists. I have said that I would personally like access to the list for
> Outreach purposes. But that is for the panel to decide.
>
> I was asking access for myself. I do not personally think the
> mailing list
> should just be distributed to all 11 panel members. I do not
> personally
> support that, though I think I've been listed as supporting
> that. I think
> that was a misunderstanding.
>
> What I support right now is sending out a vote about our name - and I
> believe Joop might be prepared to do that for us without the
> need to release
> the mailing-list to all 11 panel members. We just need to get
> that name
> chosen.
>
> I'm encouraged because it seems like we'll achieve that in
> the coming week.
> However, I have to be honest to my beliefs. I do not think
> that has to be
> linked to releasing the mailing list to the whole panel. I
> think we have a
> 'duty of care' when it comes to handling other people's
> privacy and details.
> I probably sound hypocritical because if I'm asking for
> access it sounds
> like I'm saying that I'm trustworthy but others aren't.
> That's not what I
> mean. I just mean that if 2 or 3 or 4 people have a list of
> private details,
> there's a chance those details will get released. If you have
> 11 people with
> the mailing list, you have 3 or 4 times the likelihood of the private
> details being released.
>
> It only takes one discontented person, one angry person, and
> who knows what
> damage could be done.
>
> So I favour limiting access to the mailing-list simply to
> people who need it
> to carry out specific functions. And even then - as in my
> case - it may be
> that I have to content myself by sending messages by proxy through a
> list-holder. I don't know.
>
> Right now, I'm just looking forward to knowing what the
> membership wants to
> call its organisation.
>
> There is a danger - given quite a lot of 'sleeping' members
> (or are they
> wide awake but just 'lurking'?) - that the vote could be
> quite arbitrary, if
> people are presented with a list of names, but haven't been
> presented with
> the arguments for those names. But anyway, we'll see. One
> thing's for sure.
>
> We have to have a name!
>
> Richard
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: J-F C. (Jefsey) Morfin <jefsey@club-internet.fr>
> To: Satyajit Gupta <icheckemail@indiatimes.com>
> Cc: <atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de>
> Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 9:12 PM
> Subject: [atlarge-discuss] as WE wish (wa : As the Chair wishes...)
>
>
> > Dear Satyajit,
> > we all are learning how to develop the @large. It is
> actually a key task
> > for the Internet. I would even say it is to develop the
> real Internet.
> With
> > all the countries, all the cultures, all the different
> styles, all the
> > interests. This will continue (if the IETF iDN task force
> plays well) with
> > the natural languages being supported by the DNS, etc..
> >
> > It is true that Joanna is learning too. And we learn how to
> work together
> > and how to support her. And from her: did you ever chaired
> @large effort?
> I
> > did not. She took the job, I did not. Off hats!
> >
> > I am certainly upset too at some actions of her. And I too
> do not hesitate
> > to tell her. Since you made your protest public, I am
> making mine too so
> > you see you are not alone and the members that we do not
> hide anything,
> but
> > also that there is not a split in the Panel. This is
> transparency and that
> > effort is to be a plus for us all. It takes times, sorry
> but we only are
> human.
> >
> > I have proposed many things and I am disregarded too.
> > The whole process is disappointing? True.
> > We could move much faster? True.
> > We could be far better organized and efficient? True.
> > The panel members do not even understand the obvious? True.
> >
> > But just a minute ... we are ones of them. Each of us. We
> are not building
> > a brilliant system for the world to see (at least right now). We are
> > building "us".
> >
> > And that IS what exciting and great. Because at the end of
> the day "we"
> are
> > the network. And once we are established, we will manage it
> together. A
> > network is just that: to be together. We will run the root
> if we want, we
> > will develop standards. We will relate with ISPs, etc.. no
> just us, but
> all
> > of us, all those we will join where they are - not them
> joining us. This
> is
> > slow, this is frustrating, this is a lot of things, but I
> do think that at
> > the end of the day - as Joey would say - it is illuminating
> and great.
> >
> >
> > Now, Satyajit, you have solutions in some areas. I have
> others in other
> > areas. Joanna has in some areas of her. etc. It will
> certainly take time
> > before every of us understand the obvious from the others.
> Before we tune
> > our propositions so they fit others' expectations. But each
> time we do
> > that, we build something strong and stable. And we can be
> proud of it.
> >
> > I must be candid, Joanna did upset me many times in the
> past and now. And
> I
> > certainly upset her more often. The, I learned her stamina
> during the BoD
> > campaign. I heard what she said in Montevideo.
> >
> > Joop was a good friend at times and at other times he insulted me. I
> fought
> > his icannatlagre.com control. But I do think he is right
> over the mailing
> > list right now and the panel wrong. And I do trust him.
> Brothers at arms
> is
> > what we build.
> >
> > I campaigned against Danny when he was a very poor Chair
> for the GA (the
> > Chair is always very poor) and I believe Danny is just a
> great future
> Chair
> > for the SME Constituency.
> >
> > Did I not upset you with my first mail to you?
> >
> > Judith is certainly upsetting me at wanting to confuse a Wiki with
> > everything which is not a wiki, and I certainly upset her
> at telling her
> > that a wiki is a blackboard where everyone contributes, not
> a mail, not an
> > ICQ, not a web page, etc. And sometime I will eventually
> understand what
> > she wants to say .....
> >
> > YJ Park is a person I do respect a lot for all what she
> accomplished at
> the
> > NC, at the Minc, at NCDNHC. I support her a lot of the
> coming event in
> > Montreux ... but I certainly object to her push for
> conference calls.
> Every
> > one knows that I will always exclude myself from such
> exercises. And then
> ?
> >
> > This is the way we build.
> >
> > Look at Eric, Joey, Erik, Judyth, etc. etc.. AMon us you have a very
> > important role as every of us. You represent, with Vivek, a
> great culture,
> > a large country while at the same time you cannot afford a
> costly access.
> > So you represent the interests of people we want to defend
> too, but of who
> > you live the problems. Only you can tell us about the
> outreach there. You
> > want to deal with Incorporation and Funding. No one in our group can
> better
> > defend the interest of our largest @large potential
> community: those who
> > are not yet Internet enlighten users, as Eric wants to represent the
> > "dotcommers".
> >
> > We build. We build together.
> >
> > IETF has an expression: "rough consensus". In a slightly different
> meaning,
> > this is rough consensus i here, sometimes swell, sometimes
> rough. And this
> > is GOOD ! This is real democracy. Democracy is not that
> much votes and
> > transparency; it is the voice of the people.
> >
> > You expressed your voice, I expressed mine. So many others
> did and I hope
> > will. Now, using you "nay" let try to help ourselves into
> what we urgently
> > need: a working motion system where we can propose motions.
> >
> > Is that OK with us?
> > jfc
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 19:54 05/09/02, Satyajit Gupta said:
> >
> >
> > > Dear Joanna,
> > >
> > > I was not well and I informed you of the same BUT I did
> NOT offer to
> > > step down as Co-ordinator of the WG on Incorporation &
> Funding. On the
> > > contrary, I said I did NOT wish to be replaced when you
> unilaterally
> > > offered to replace me.
> > >
> > > Simultaneously, I requested you for more information on the
> > > Incorporation and Funding work already going on which you
> have not yet
> > > bothered to answer by replying to my email. This is why I
> am forced to
> > > use the publicly archived mailing list and AGAIN request
> you to keep me
> > > informed.
> > >
> > > I am only too happy to reply to you publicly if it means
> that you do
> not
> > > get to blatantly distort my words. I shall continue to
> publicly demand
> > > the necessary information which neither you nor anyone
> else has the
> right
> > > to withhold!
> > >
> > > As for personal attacks on me, I do not even wish to
> acknowledge them
> > > and thus get into petty slanging matches which seem to be
> their forte...
> > >
> > > I am very disappointed that the democratic, open and
> transparent forum
> > > that we foresaw in the past has failed to materialize.
> > >
> > > Remember, an enlightened despot is STILL a despot!
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Satyajit.
> > >
> > >
> > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from Indiatimes at
> http://email.indiatimes.com
> > >
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> > >
> >
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