RE: [at large-discuss] Identity WG and limiting posts.

["McMeikan, Andrew" <McMeikanA@logica.com>]

Comments interspersed.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Williams [mailto:jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 3:16 PM
> To: McMeikan, Andrew
> Cc: atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de
> Subject: Re: [at large-discuss] Identity WG and limiting posts.
> 
> 
> Andrew and all stakeholders or other interested parties and members,
> 
> McMeikan, Andrew wrote:
> 
> > While I am seriously against censorship and invasions of 
> privacy I believe
> > that any representative that can take an official office 
> must be established
> > as a real and verifiable person.
> >
> > Birth certificate, government issued photo ID and other 
> hard to forge
> > documents can help in this.
> 
>   None of these documents are difficult to forge.  Drivers licenses
> in most US states have photo's on them and are still very easy to
> forge.  Birth certificates in the US are also very easy to 
> forge as well,
<snip>
Anything can be forged, but it gives some measure that an attempt to verify
has been made.
Would someone forge a dozen documents just to throw a vote?  If they did it
would severely increase the chances of getting caught.  Also the risk of
prosecution would be a deterrent.

> 
>   The second and likely more difficult problem with the
> helpfulness of these documents is answering the obvious
> question as to how do you protect against Identity theft
> now becoming a huge problem in the US.  One of the
<snip>
Very valid point I can relate to as I have had (admittedly minor) exposure
to this sort of behaviour.  Yet my details are public by my choice.  I would
fight for the right of others to choose differently from me.

> >
> >
> > In fact just a telephone number is probably all that's 
> really needed most of
> > the time with only those holding positions of power 
> (treasurer etc.) having
> > to divulge more details.
> 
>   Well some or many members or potential members outside of
> the US may not have their own Phone number of a phone in 
> their own name.
> Still others yet in the US, may have a silent or unlisted 
> number they do not
> wish available to this or any other organization.  But in 
> many instances in the
> US, you are right, the fact that a member or potential member that has
> a Phone number in their own name would be adequate for basic 
> identification
> purposes.  However in China, and many asian countries this would
> not be a good or viable identification method or means.
>

If someone is hard to contact, odds are they wont be chosen as treasurer or
spokesperson, if you see this as unfair or discrimination perhaps it is.
You do need to discriminate to pick the most suited, at some point you have
to say that they have a phone, or ready access to one and can show who they
are somehow.
 
> >
> >
> > I would still like to believe that there is a place for 
> anonymous comments.
> >
> > How do people see the following set up.
> >
> > 1. anonymous guest comments in forums, public comment areas
> > 2. unverified, email address, persistent nyms.  - regular 
> contributors who
> > do not wish to disclose private details.
> > 3. contactable verified persons, able to hold positions
> > 4. Highly accountable, we know where they live, can successfully get
> > arrested if they run off with the cash box.  Need plenty of 
> details. Able to
> > hold important office and be legally responsible.
> 
>   This might be fine/fair or adequate for US citizens if and 
> only if there
> is adequate security methods, legal liability insurance, and 
> filed affidavit
> to protect the identify of those members whom this specific 
> information
> is kept on file and that the incorporation of this 
> organization is in the
> US also.  It would not be fine/fair or even close to adequate 
> for members
> or potential members outside the US, especially in Asia and 
> even in some
> EU countries as you outline it above, Andrew.
> 
>   The other problem I see here is that such private 
> information must also
> be protected from unsolicited advertising, and online SPAM, or sale
> of that members name and personal details to various companies
> that sell lists of names and addresses/phone numbers for the purposes
> of selling them something that the member did not request.  There are
> several federal laws in the US called consumer protection laws that
> carry some severe consequences along these lines.
> 
>   Hence I would suggest the following:
> 
<much legalese demanding equal rights for fake ids snipped>
Not workable and you know it.  I love anonymous speech, I think that
impeding it is wrong.  I also think it is self evident that to expect
anonymity to carry the same trust and reputation as a publicly open person
speaking is totally preposterous.  Not only are you proposing this but
suggesting paying for huge sums of insurance in the case of privacy leaks.

Privacy in the case of making motions, voting and representing the group is
unworkable for two reasons.

Technical: if its in a computer someone can get it, regardless of
precautions insured or otherwise.

Practical: Of all people you should know that when a bold statement is made
that questions are immediately asked such as who are you really?  Are your
members real?  Prove it!

Perhaps this is the way of an uncaring and hostile world, but that is the
way it is.  It is not needed for me to prove you do not exist.  It is needed
that you prove you DO exist. This is not a direct request for you to prove
yourself personally, your comments stand on their merit not on yours.  If as
a group we make a press release, you can bet we will be called to prove just
who we are.  The press would have a field day if we said to them, prove we
don't exist, instead of having some firm details at hand for them.


I gave personal details to ICANN, they sent me a letter granting (oh such
short lived) voting rights.  ICANN had a very large at-large membership.
Will us as a group really loose so many because we want to be sure who they
are?

	cya,	Andrew...

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