[atlarge-discuss] Last response re: Re: Committee-work and Outreach

[espresso@e-scape.net]

At 19:31 -0800 2002/10/27, Jeff Williams wrote:
[snip]
>> Actually, there are two domain names -- http://www.editors.ca and http://www.reviseurs.ca (which could have been located with any search engine) -- and each of the two involves multiple URLs linking to various sections and documents.
>
>  Both of these refrenced URL's should anyone care to look into them >closely as one of my staff and I did, will clearly see two things that do >not support you original contention regarding committee's formation.  
>1.) the actual URL's as listed are only the entry point for the actual >referenced information which are really, http://www.editors.ca/welcome.htm >(English Version) fro both of Judyth's URL references, french version also >available. And
>2.) No reference of "Ad hoc" committee formation is listed for these
>references.
>
>  Hence we can accurately and clearly conclude that these two
>URL references, which I was already familiar with anyway, are
>not valid references for Judyths contention...

I have no idea why Jeff needed assistance to access the welcome page from http://www.editors.ca or http://www.reviseurs.ca but perhaps it's the same reason why he has difficulty understanding what I write. The EAC/ACR Web site was not my creation and I didn't select the host but since it comprises dozens of links to various pages, as well as multiple links for the Online Directory of Editors and each regional branch, I followed the usual practice of providing the entry-point URL and letting each visitor decide for him/herself which links to pursue.

Anyway, in my message I specifically raised this site as an example of a well-respected organization which does not insist that every single document accessed through its site be hosted on the domain name's server.

I also specified (for Jeff's benefit, since I assume most people already knew) that the organization naturally does not put all its committee lists and working documents on public display since these are internal matters.

>> However, before you announce that I'm lying about being a member (I've been one since 1984), please note that you can reach me from the Quebec/Atlantic Canada Hotline link, as well as by trying to subscribe (which you can't, since you're not a member) to our French-language mailing list of which I am the list manager.
>
>  Wonderful!  Yet another form of Censorship.  How quaint.  None the less
>as we [INEGRoup] have a number of editors in Canada, I am sure one of
>then can join and keep our organization abreast of these organizations
>interests, activities, and other endeavors as needed.  We may even have
>a members or two that are already members presently, I don't know...

Jeff, it is hardly "censorship" for a professional association to provide a forum where its members can discuss things amongst themselves. It's an unmoderated list but open to members only. If you want to join an association for Canadian editors and sign up for both English and French lists and heckle me in French on the one I manage from the technical end, that's up to you; however, you *must* do it in French on that list, and I don't manage the English one.

>> >> Most committees in the non-profit world are collaborations among people who have volunteered their time to accomplish some particular task.
>> >
>> >  Very true.  Hence in part why I am still a bit confused why you feel that you should be paid for you volunteering or self appointing yourself as
Secretariat of this organization.  ???  Not that I have a problem with >that, just seems that it doesn't jive with this comment/ contention/ >statement...
>>
>> The confusion is evidently internal since at *no* point in any of my postings did I suggest that anyone should pay me or any other member for serving as secretary of a committee.
>
>  You did so indirectly yes Judyth.  In fact in this very thread you did.  >You suggested that the secretariat should be a paid position.  

No, I didn't. I said that eventually, if the organization gets off the ground and reaches the size it is hoping for, it may need to pay a permanent office-body to handle the daily routine business. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the elected Secretary of the organization being paid (which, as I pointed out, is usually prohibited), nor with any desire to be paid for volunteering to be recording secretary of one working group.

I know I write reasonably clearly, Jeff, so perhaps the problem is in your reading comprehension. Otherwise, I can only assume your main purpose in calling me a liar (repeatedly) is to discredit me. Once again I'll spell it out: I trust my fellow-members to draw their own conclusions about this as well as everything else.

>> Also, it was never suggested by me or anyone else that I should be Secretary of this (quasi-)organization) -- I merely volunteered to be recording secretary for WG-Outreach and Jefsey (rightly or wrongly) put me on the subscription page for the Outreach mailing list under the heading "Secretariat" so people would know who to e-mail if they had trouble subscribing!
>
>  Yes.  And you accepted prematurely...  Very sad..  :(

I'm not sure why you feel it was premature. I offered my services because it seemed we were ready to start doing real work, and nobody but yourself objected. 

If your goal was to ask for the recording secretary to be an elective postion, why have you not made a motion to that effect either here or in WG-Outreach or lodged a formal protest with the Panel?

If your goal, on the other hand, was to waste everybody's time and prevent any work from getting done, you have failed miserably, though I've spent far too much time responding to your mis-statements and innuendos.

>> Our fellow-members can draw their own conclusions about our conversations without recourse to the courts, and I'll gladly abide by their judgment.
>
>  Yes they can.  I however may not.

That is a decision to be made by each individual according to his or her conscience. We are all here voluntarily and are free to quit if we don't like what's happening.

>> >> Would you honestly prefer that these things not be done? and, if so, why on earth did you volunteer to help do them???
>> >
>> >  I did not volunteer to implement Richards suggestions.  I volunteered
>> >to improve outreach, aid in funding, and assist in DNS issues for this
>> >organization...
>>
>> As anyone can see from the archives, the WG-Outreach will be dealing with recruiting and retention of members, developing relations with other organizations, etc. rather than funding or DNS matters. (We do have a WG-DNS but not yet a WG-Funding.)
>
>  Yes we have a WG-DNS.  And it seem extremely backwards that we do,
>and yet to not have a WG-Funding or Funding Committee...

You might like to ask yourself why you are the only person who seems to feel the need for funding before we are in any position to prepare a budget or state what the money would be used for.

>> Merely having a registration form at icannatlarge.com for people to stumble on more-or-less accidentally is unlikely to lead to a massive increase in membership, now or later.
>
>  We also had one for icannatlarge.org as well until yet again >icannatlarge.org was snatched..
>
>> Those who do land there and choose to register are most welcome, of course, but they are unlikely to justify a claim that the organization speaks for the worldwide constituency of Internet users.
>
>  I agree here of course. But that should be or goal to a degree as Richard
>has clearly posted about, and to which I, and it seems a 1000+ others >agree.

Actually, it was my impression that most people who posted anything on the subject were aware that "outreach" involves more than a Web form and pious hopes that people will find it. At the time the WG-Outreach was first set up, we already had the form but wanted to "reach out" to Internet users around the world. Some of us, at least, already have experience in the possible means of doing so and are making suggestions and collecting information to that end. 

It seems your own part in that effort may consist largely of criticizing our efforts to do that, and perhaps eventually informing your INEgroup members of the URL of the registration page.

>> If you'd rather trust to the form to do the job automatically, you can >certainly say so here and within WG-Outreach.
>
>  I would rather that all of the members that wish to, and the more the >better, would as volunteers, do some door knocking.  And I mean the >physical kind of door knocking...

That might make sense in terms of the "montreal.qc.atlarge.ca" -- though I'm  partly disabled and couldn't possibly go around to knock on 3 million doors if I wanted to -- but it is even less practical as a means of contacting those in other places. This organization(-to-be) has set out to do something on a worldwide scale and specifically for Internet users, so surely we should consider the possibility of using the Internet effectively???

>> Personally and as a member of WG-Outreach, I would advocate that we make sure new members of this group know their input is welcome and that one virtue of committee-work-by-e-mail is the fact that there are always enough seats at the table.
>
>  I agree.  And I always have...  In fact as a WG, we should always keep
>things open and transparent, as well as absolutely accountable.
>
>> "Many hands make light work" and multiple brains applied to a problem are undoubtedly better (and more democratic) than just a few.
>
>  Also very true, and has always for many many years been my contention.

By the way, Jeff, exactly what is it that the 127,000+ INEgroup members do?
There doesn't seem to be a URL for your organization, though people have posted a number of URLs which mention them, and I'd be interested in seeing the other side of the story. Off-list would be fine.

Regards,

Judyth

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Judyth Mermelstein     "cogito ergo lego ergo cogito..."
Montreal, QC           <espresso@e-scape.net>
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"A word to the wise is sufficient. For others, use more."
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