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[atlarge-discuss] Re: please share with your members,and other organizations and mailings lists

Dear Jon

Thank you for your e-mail. I wonder if you could clarify please. Are you
advocating that the way we co-operate is by adopting a structure for
internet users, defined by ICANN and set within the structure of their own
organisation? Should our organisations consider setting up the structure
outside ICANN and independent of it? A kind of umbrella of groups with
similar aims and aspirations?

The interests of our groups and members may not best be served by operating
within the constraints of ICANN's structures, inevitably used by ICANN to
legitimise their own agendas and policies, and to claim to DoC that they are
involving the Internet User community, while in reality they have just
chosen to expel elected representatives of the user constituency from their
Board. The ICANN Ralo scheme is, I suspect, lip-service to the American
Government (who also want to claim legitimacy for ICANN which helps them
control the net).

We have just carried out a Poll, and a 4 to 1 majority did not trust ICANN's
At Large structures and plans. A further large majority rejected
participating in the RALOs in favour of seeking coalitions outside ICANN
with organisations like yours, and seeking to build our own independent
structures, which can develop more freely, and speak for Internet Users
worldwide, if needs be in opposition to the American Government and its
ICANN quango.

This is not to suggest that we should not make informed comments and
interventions in the ICANN arena, but to build and grow our User Structures
within ICANN from the outset could turn out to be a grave tactical error.
Are your organisations and a coalition of others not capable and keen to
develop worldwide regional structures, national structures, local structures
to represent an alliance of Internet Users outside of American and ICANN

The ICANN Board is hugely discredited, and they have a track record of
marginalising User groups such as the At Large. ICANN's aim is to "contain
and control" these user groups, giving them a semblance of involvement but
no real power, as a rubber stamp for their own agenda.

I would be extremely surprised if IcannatLarge chooses the ICANN structures,
because a clear majority of our members want to forge alliances, umbrellas,
and structures which are independent and possibly in opposition to ICANN.

Please do not associate Vittorio Bertola's involvement in the RALO's with
his involvement in IcannatLarge. If he participates in the ICANN Ralos
scheme, he does so as an individual or as a representative of ISOC Italy.
IcannatLarge, as things stand at the moment, appears to be opposed to any
representation in these RALOs. Our position will probably be confirmed

Nevertheless, setting aside all these issues, I am sure that the great
majority of our members - currently over 1000 - would favour close ties and
co-operation with your organisations. I really think this would be
beneficial. Just not inside ICANN.

With kind regards,


----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Thor Thorhallsson <Jon@ECPINT.com>
To: 'Richard Henderson' <richardhenderson@ntlworld.com>
Cc: 'Alain MOSCOWITZ (E-mail)' <alain.moscowitz@cecua.org>; 'Friedrich
Dittmer Public Relations CECUA (E-mail)' <friedrich.dittmer@cecua.org>;
'Stuart Goold Secretary General CECUA (E-mail)' <stuart.goold@cecua.org>;
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 7:39 PM
Subject: RE: please share with your members,and other organizations and
mailings lists

> Dear Richard,
> CECUA and ISOC ECC have formally approached the ICANN selected ALAC
> for the European Region, Roessler and Bertola, and offered co-operation
> assistance in creating a strong and resourceful European RALO.
> We are waiting for their reaction.
> Kind regards,
> Jon
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Henderson [mailto:richardhenderson@ntlworld.com]
> Sent: 29. janúar 2003 06:20
> To: Jon@ecpint.com
> Cc: Alain MOSCOWITZ (E-mail); Friedrich Dittmer Public Relations CECUA
> (E-mail); Stuart Goold Secretary General CECUA (E-mail);
> atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de
> Subject: Re: please share with your members,and other organizations and
> mailings lists
> Jon,
> If there is any way CECUA and IcannAtLarge can work together toward shared
> goals then it would be great to work together. My view is that there are
> many Internet User groups with diverse interests but certain shared
> I see a good way forward to be the recognition of this multiplicity, and
> building of some kind of umbrella where a coalition of sympathetic groups
> can meet, support issues, and signal the growing alliance of views in
> of Internet Users getting much more representation in the processes of the
> Internet.
> For example, we could create a site such as worldwideusers.org (or similar
> name which is available) and then have a central set of pages for
> of key issues, as well as subdomains for different groups and localities.
> The Internet belongs to millions of ordinary people who use it, build it,
> share on it, trade on it, communicate on it, educate on it, and the sooner
> we build an independent internet users' movement to clearly represent this
> huge but diverse constituency, the better.
> I hope you won't mind if I forward this thread to the discuss list of our
> members so that they can be included in what could be a really valuable
> contact between our two organisations. An alliance and sharing of ideas
> goals would be excellent, and particularly an exploration of a structure
> independent of ICANN, which would, however, still want to engage with
> on many issues, but on OUR own terms, using OUR own structures.
> Once again, thanks for your response.
> Kind regards,
> Richard Henderson
> (Panelist, IcannatLarge)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jon Thor Thorhallsson <Jon@ECPINT.com>
> To: 'Richard Henderson' <richardhenderson@ntlworld.com>
> Cc: Alain MOSCOWITZ (E-mail) <alain.moscowitz@cecua.org>; Friedrich
> Public Relations CECUA (E-mail) <friedrich.dittmer@cecua.org>; Stuart
> Secretary General CECUA (E-mail) <stuart.goold@cecua.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:35 AM
> Subject: RE: please share with your members,and other organizations and
> mailings lists
> > Richard,
> > Thanks for those interesting comments.
> > CECUA has touched upon some of your concerns in the last CECUA NewsEvent
> > www.cecua.org
> > Kind regards,
> > Jon
> >
> > Prof. Dr. Jon Thorhallsson
> > President CECUA (Confederation of European Computer User Associations)
> > Tel:  +354 899 1190
> > Fax: +354 553 4363
> > jon.thorhallsson@cecua.org
> > www.cecua.org
> >
> >  -----Original Message-----
> > From: Richard Henderson [mailto:richardhenderson@ntlworld.com]
> > Sent: 28. janúar 2003 22:40
> > To: Denise Michel; Thomas Roessler; Alexander Svensson; Andriamparany
> > Marius; Christian Ahlert; Edmundo Valenti; Erick Iriarte Ahon; Esther
> Dyson;
> > Gabriel Piñeiro; Gonzalo Auza; Hans Klein; Izumi Aizu; Jakobsen Tom
> > (E-mail); Jon Thorhallsson; MOSCOWITZ Alain; Na. Vijayashankar; Nuria de
> la
> > Fuente Teixidó; Peter Shane; Ramayya Krishnan; Ramboasalama Haja;
> > AddressListTooLong-Suppressed:
> > Subject: Re: please share with your members,and other organizations and
> > mailings lists
> >
> > Sotiris
> >
> > Thank you for forwarding this mail from Denise Michel.
> >
> > However IcannatLarge.org has not taken a decision on any kind of
> > participation whatsoever in this "top-down" ICANN process.
> >
> > We shall hopefully be taking a vote in the next few days, and there is
> > already some vociferous criticism of a process and agenda which seems to
> > have been set up top-down in order to legitimise the Lynn reforms and
> > disgraceful proposed expulsion of the At Large elected representatives
> from
> > the ICANN Board.
> >
> > The idea that the At Large movement of Internet Users worldwide should
> > structured INSIDE Icann is a big presumption on the part of Denise
> > It seems clear to me that this is a cynical attempt to contain and
> > the role of the At large, and is an exercise in damage limitation.
> >
> > There is a much stronger case to be made for creating a coalition and
> > alliance of Internet User groups OUTSIDE the fake Icann structures,
> it
> > can develop "bottom up" and independently as a vocal force in opposition
> to
> > the self-interest and discredited management of Icann, demanding true
> > democratic representation on the Board, instead of sanctioning the
> > replacement role for the At Large as an advisory that can be ignored at
> > will.
> >
> > The ALAC and system of RALOs is an Icann agenda which seeks to ward off
> real
> > democratic participation and representation on the Icann Board.
> >
> > However, there is another At Large emerging, a greater At Large, which
> seeks
> > to develop its own agenda, its own structures, and - most importantly -
> its
> > own democracy.
> >
> > To illustrate: what democratic mandate has Denise Michel got? Who voted
> for
> > her? Isn't she simply at the beck and call of the Icann Board? Isn't she
> > just laying claim "top down" to a role and an agenda which the At Large
> > itself never chose as its favoured course?
> >
> > In contrast, there is a growing bottom up movement based on democratic
> > process, and the best future for the At Large is to create a coalition
> > sympathisers who agree that the Internet is a public resource for
> > of ordinary people, and that it is unthinkable that this huge
> > should be kept from taking a critical controlling role in the
> administration
> > of the DNS - possibly without Icann at all in the future.
> >
> > So once again, thank you for keeping our membership informed about these
> > self-appointing, top-down imposed initiatives : but our membership has
> > agreed to support the ALAC or the RALOs.
> >
> > To do so seems to many of us to be a legitimisation of an unacceptable
> > regime and an unacceptable agenda.
> >
> > Richard Henderson
> > (Panelist, IcannatLarge.org)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

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