RE: [atlarge-discuss] Panel Mandate options

["Abel Wisman" <abel@able-towers.com>]

Joop,

As a member of the atlarge.org I still protest you putting my name on
the atlarge.com list or website.

If and when you get a mandate from the atlarge dot org to run an
election, or another straw-poll, then I suggest you use the official
membership list of that organisation, instead of your own.

I also suggest you go to an agreed upon or to agree upon method of
establishing that mandate, and publicly state you will abide by that
mandate.

Any other way, like pushing this down the throat of this organisation
without some form of agreement is nothing but following your own agenda
and works negatively for this organisation or what is left of it.

Feel free to poll the atlarge dot com "members" but then please do so
via your forum or own maillinglist.

There is still a semblance of a panel, if they hand it over, a straw
poll can be run with one simple question: list x names you want to
organise the new elections.

Then those people setup rules and regulations for that vote and propose
(straw-poll) how to vote and with what rules.

You are impersonating ICANN here with topdown decisions, again, you can
do such in atlarge dot com, but please not here, where every member has
as much rights as you do.

Kind regards

Abel


-----Original Message-----
From: Joop Teernstra [mailto:terastra@terabytz.co.nz] 
Sent: 26 February 2003 01:10
To: espresso@e-scape.net
Cc: atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de
Subject: Re: [atlarge-discuss] Panel Mandate options


At 06:37 a.m. 26/02/2003, you wrote:
>Hi, Joop,
>
>Before I volunteer to watch the Polling Booth, I need to know what is 
>really involved. It's easy enough for me to offer to receive copies of 
>e-mail ballots and count the votes off-line; anything that requires me 
>to be online is more complicated since I have very little time for 
>using Web interfaces and such, especially if there is much of a 
>learning curve -- I have a *lot* of work to do over the next couple of 
>weeks, and all too little brain to do it with!

Hi Judyth,

I did not realize that web access is so difficult for you that you could

not quickly read the Poll Watcher basics put up in the Forum 
http://www.icannatlarge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=309

I'll copy them here for you.:
quote
Pending the election of a Polling Commission, Polls can be undertaken as
a 
private initiative in a bottom-up fashion.

To add to the credibility of their results, neutral and broadly
respected 
Watchers need to be engaged.

These watchers need to be able to answer email within 24 hours. These
watchers should have the following rights:

1. Get the outgoing Ballot message in advance (for comment and
amendments) 2. Get copy of all correspondence with voters 3. get Polling
Options and background story 24H in advance before it goes 
on the PB website (for comment and improvements)
4. Get list of all the voters names or email addresses (strictly in 
confidence) as soon as the Ballot goes out.
5. Get copy of all actual raw voting results from the database (strictly
in 
confidence) as soon as the voting closes.
6. Get list of all bouncing addresses.

The Watcher's duty will be to report on the Poll and declare the Polling

results reliable or unreliable within 4 days after the closing of the
Polls. unquote


>Much as I like the idea of using the Polling Booth for gathering input,

>I am still extremely hesitant about conducting official votes on the 
>Web.
>
>Given that only one person in two in most developing countries has any 
>Internet access at all, and many of them have limited, intermittent 
>access which can be a problem for dealing with the Web, not to mention 
>that some of them have to pay for their connections by the minute or 
>kilobyte transferred. E-mail tends to be more economical of both time 
>and money, which is a good thing for people in lower-income situations.

I have much experience with poor people in parts of the developing world

(Philippines) and web access is actually easier for most than email-only

accounts.  Poor people do not have computers with email clients. They
access the internet via Internet cafe's (average cities have HUNDREDS 
and most small towns have a few that are packed with people)  and have
an 
email account through a web interface (Hotmail, Yahoo, etc.).  Many
think 
that the web is all there is.

Many do not have telephone connections at home. Many poor people now use

cellular phones, but still do NOT have landlines. (We waited 11 years
for 
our landline)


>Also, as you've seen, I'm quite concerned about the security and 
>privacy aspects of Web-based voting systems, as well as the 
>difficulties of verifying the identities of voters and of doing a 
>recount when results may be disputed. (BTW, so are most governments and

>other organizations.) Hence my earlier recommendation of a two-step 
>process for e-mail ballots, whereby membership and eligibility to vote 
>are checked first, then identifying information removed before the 
>ballot is passed on for the count.

I think your proposal for a two step verification is excellent and it
can 
be practiced when handling Booth votes as well.
I would be more than happy  to let the watchers help me in sorting out
the 
final full voters' list.
Should we send ballots to members who indicated that they don't want 
announcements? In case of bounces, should the corresponding names be
listed 
on the website with a request to update to a working email address?

Maintaining vote anonymity is a much harder thing. If I run the polls 
without watchers, it is only 1 person who has theoretically access to 
confidential data.  To analyze raw results is not easy, but in theory 
database query scripts could be written.

The more watchers there are, the more anonymity can be compromised.

If you use Elisabeth Porteneuve's (Kent Crispin's?) email  votebot, you
do 
not know how many people will get the confidential data. How watertight
is 
ICANN's  GNSO secretariat?

An email address, from where the email votes are distributed to watchers
is 
dangerous, as you cannot know for sure who else is on that distribution
list.

I regard email voting as less secure than sending votes to a single 
webserver, because emails can be spoofed but  login to a server can be
made 
secure.


The Booth does the counting and displaying automatically, so that saves 
work and mistakes.
For verification the PD administrator  sends the raw database output to
the 
watchers.

Anyway, I can understand that you don't want to commit, but I will
include 
you in my emails to the watchers anyway, so that you can judge the
system 
for the next time.
The members have asked to be polled frequently, so there will be a next
time.


> From our little test-run of the Polling Booth, during which I myself 
>was unable to vote due to technical difficulties and other members were

>not even invited to cast their ballots,

That had nothing to do with the system. Abel Wisman, Thomas Roessler and

David Farrar were not on my list, because they had publicly requested to
be 
removed.
This time, I will add them back, unless they protest now.

>I
>don't think your system is yet at the point where I'd recommend 
>adopting it as our official method of voting. That's not to say it 
>couldn't be at some point in the future, if provision were made for 
>those who can't vote via the Web, but it would not be my preference 
>now.
>
>The topics look good, though I'm too rushed right now to
>know whether they are what the group as a whole wants right now and I 
>do have some concerns about the process by which the questions were 
>chosen last time around.

The process this time is that I ask appointed  Watchers for their
approval 
and for amendments, simply in order not to be acting unilaterally.

The *proper* process should be that there is an elected Polling
Committee 
who will jointly decide on all text and options  used in the Booth and
in 
the Polling  Notices.



-joop-



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