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Re: [atlarge-discuss] The VOTE on the Polling Commission
Jeff,
I doubt a lot that you can teach democracy to a Uruguayan citizen, I have
participated in 7 veto processes to laws approved by the parliament and I
have edited 2 projects of laws on e-commerce (that regrettably my political
representatives and friends didn't share). This year there will be two
consultations to the citizens for approved laws
Have you asked to your neighborhood's baker, to the taxi driver, to the
dispatcher of milk, to the manager of the corner in your neighborhood, if
they participate enla writing of the laws?
Make an experiment: invite to ALL their neighborhood to meet in the square
to vote to improve the illumination of the streets in the nights.
Does that know that the syndrome of the fellow ALPHA is?
cordially,
Mauro. -
.....................
[ES] Dudo mucho que puedas enseñarle a un uruguayo de democracia, yo he
participado en 7 procesos de veto a leyes aprobadas por el parlamento y he
redactado 2 proyectos de leyes sobre comercio electrónico (que
lamentablemente mis representantes políticos y amigos no compartieron. Este
año habrá dos consultas a los ciudadanos por leyes aprobadas.
¿Le has preguntado al panadero de tu vecindario, al taxista, al repartidor
de leche, al empresario de la esquina en tu vencindario, si ellos participan
enla redacción de las leyes?
Haga un experimento: invite a TODO su vencindario a reunirse en la plaza a
votar para mejorar la iluminación de las calles en las noches.
Sabe lo que es el síndrome del sujeto ALFA?
cordialmente,
Mauro.-
----- Mensaje original -----
De: Jeff Holt
Para: '@Atlarge Lista'
Enviado: Sábado, 19 de Julio de 2003 11:00 a.m.
Asunto: RE: [atlarge-discuss] The VOTE on the Polling Commission
Mauro, et al...
Can't speak for Richard, but as a matter of fact, I have participated by
voting on laws nationally, and contributed editing and conceptual design
both on the local and organization level several times. And am
currently involved with drafting the Constitution for an online 3D
community as well... History and the development of government have
been a serious study of mine at different times of the past 40 something
years, lol.... and how NOT to word things in a manner that makes then
incomprehensible to the normal citizen.
Sincerely,
Jeff Holt
Jefftttt@txucom.net
www.tejas-info-services.com
-----Original Message-----
From: A/S Mauro D. Ríos [mailto:mdrios@adinet.com.uy]
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 12:29 AM
To: Richard Henderson
Cc: @Atlarge Lista
Subject: Re: [atlarge-discuss] The VOTE on the Polling Commission
Richard and @All,
Did you participate in the writing of the last 10 laws of your country?
Did you participate in the writing of the last 10 internal rules in your
company? (if you are not boss)
I am sure you didn't participate in the writing, but also these for sure
YES
you participated or you are entitled the constitutional of vetoing any
law
that the Parliament edits.
It is not possible to apply direct Democracy for practical reasons.
I don't imagine to the North American town or any other one, everything,
gathered in the Great Canyon editing and discussing the texts of the
laws.
And it is not for that one cannot be carried out, all the North American
citizens surely enter in the Great Canyon (?), the problem is that it is
not
practical neither executive.
The guarantees will be in the statutes, how the guarantees for the
citizens
of their country are in the constitution of a country. And in this case
there are particularities for that it is the beginning. You would
participate in the writing of the Declaration of Rights of Jefferson?
(if
you lived in that time). And if it had participated, who did give him
the
permission?, you did ask to the citizens if they agreed with the text?.
did
Obviously later all agree with that wonderful text. (I say all for that
that
text was the base for the constitution of my country).
..........................
[ES]
¿Tú participaste en la redacción de las últimas 10 leyes de tu país?
¿Tú participaste en la redacción de las últimas 10 reglas internas en tu
empresa? (si no eres el jefe)
Estoy seguro que no participaste en la redacción, pero también estos
seguro
que SI participaste o tienes el derecho constitucional de vetar
cualquier
ley que el Parlamento redacte.
No es posible aplicar Democracia directa por razones prácticas.
No me imagino al pueblo norteamericano o cualquier otro, todo, reunido
en el
Gran Cañón redactando y discutiendo los textos de las leyes. Y no es por
que
no se pueda hacer, seguramente todos los ciudadanos norteamericanos
entran
en el Gran Cañón (?), el problema es que no es práctico ni ejecutivo.
Las garantías estarán en los estatutos, cómo las garantías para los
ciudadanos de su país están en la constitución de un país. Y en este
caso
hay particularidades por que es el comienzo. ¿Tu participarías en la
redacción de la Declaración de Derechos de Jefferson? (si vivieras en
esa
época). Y si hubiera participado, ¿quién le dio el permiso?, ¿Ud. le
preguntó a los ciudadanos si estaban de acuerdo con el texto?.
Obviamente
después todos estuvimos de acuerdo con ese maravilloso texto. (Digo
todos
por que ese texto fue la base para la constitución de mi país).
cordially,
Mauro. -
----- Mensaje original -----
De: Richard Henderson
Para: atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de
Enviado: Viernes, 18 de Julio de 2003 08:30 p.m.
Asunto: Re: [atlarge-discuss] The VOTE on the Polling Commission
----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Blair <hblair@hotfootmail.com>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Richard Henderson
> >
> > Where Panel opinion and Membership opinion diverge, whose
> > opinion will take precedence?
>
> Richard, you have the wrong question because you don't
> understand the intent. Here's how I see this happening:
Hi Hugh,
No I don't have the wrong question, I have the question I wanted to ask.
I wasn't alluding to the specific decisions on how to constitute the
Panel,
but to the long-term relationship between the Poll and the Panel.
Say here are 120 issues polled in the coming 12 months...
Say the Panel disagrees with the expressed opinion of the Membership in
7 of
those issues.
"Where Panel opinion and Membership opinion diverge, whose opinion will
take
precedence?"
That is my question.
Abel implies that in such cases, the contested issues would be put to a
"full vote". But some would argue that an elected Panel should be
allowed
the slack to exercise its own judgements, contrary to Poll findings,
particularly where the result is marginal.
And then you are into very grey and contentious areas.
What I'm saying is that to pre-empt future conflict, we should state
clearly
the rules of precedence.
Personally, I do not like the argument that you let elected Panelists do
what they want, and everything will be alright in the end because you
can
always vote them out later. I dislike that argument because the damage
may
be done in the meantime.
Personally, I've advocated all along that we should create a
constitution
where the Membership is always sovereign, and has powers to intervene.
The
Polling Process can be part of that Process of Intervention.
If we are bottom-up, and implementing the wishes of the membership, then
we
should safeguard the membership's priority. That does not mean running
the
whole org by Poll. Far from it. In any Polling Vote, there should be an
option to "Allow the Panel to decide on grounds that I do not have an
informed view of the issue"... something like that.
There should also be a means of distinguishing serious polling issues
from
frivolous ones.
But where issues are serious, and polled, and the majority want to
re-direct
the Panel, then the constitution must re-enforce that right (IMHO). It
should not be left to an unwritten 'understanding'.
No doubt all these matters will be addressed *before* any move to
initiate
the Poll. And yes, I'm happy to be patient about all this, with thanks
for
your thoughts and efforts!
But I conclude - the line management:
Members > Panel
Members > Poll > confirm Panel policy or re-direct it.
But it is always the Members who are the controlling guardians of their
own
organisation.
yrs,
Richard H
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