Re: [atlarge-discuss] The VOTE on the Polling Commission

[Eric Dierker <eric@hi-tek.com>]

Democracy and censorship are strange creatures.  My shoeshine boys have an 
element of both.  Yet they do not enjoy all of the fruits, through 
ignorance.
Is it my job to educate them? - Yes!  And in so doing who gains the most 
education? - Me.  The greatest test of a civilization is how it treats its' 
lowest citizens. Education is marketing and marketing is education.
Let us be good to one another and learn from each other as we grow and 
educate others and market our association.  Inside to outside and outside to 
inside, both in our hearts and our associations.

Ultreya Panel
e


> Jeff,
> 
> I doubt a lot that you can teach democracy to a Uruguayan citizen, I
> have participated in 7 veto processes to laws approved by the
> parliament and I have edited 2 projects of laws on e-commerce (that
> regrettably my political representatives and friends didn't share).
> This year there will be two consultations to the citizens for approved
> laws
> 
> Have you asked to your neighborhood's baker, to the taxi driver, to the
> dispatcher of milk, to the manager of the corner in your neighborhood,
> if they participate enla writing of the laws?
> 
> Make an experiment: invite to ALL their neighborhood to meet in the
> square to vote to improve the illumination of the streets in the
> nights.
> 
> Does that know that the syndrome of the fellow ALPHA is?
> 
> cordially,
> Mauro. -
> 
> .....................
> [ES] Dudo mucho que puedas enseñarle a un uruguayo de democracia, yo he
> participado en 7 procesos de veto a leyes aprobadas por el parlamento y
> he redactado 2 proyectos de leyes sobre comercio electrónico (que
> lamentablemente mis representantes políticos y amigos no compartieron.
> Este año habrá dos consultas a los ciudadanos por leyes aprobadas.
> 
> ¿Le has preguntado al panadero de tu vecindario, al taxista, al
> repartidor de leche, al empresario de la esquina en tu vencindario, si
> ellos participan enla redacción de las leyes?
> 
> Haga un experimento: invite a TODO su vencindario a reunirse en la
> plaza a votar para mejorar la iluminación de las calles en las noches.
> 
> Sabe lo que es el síndrome del sujeto ALFA?
> 
> cordialmente,
> Mauro.-
> 
> 
> ----- Mensaje original -----
> De: Jeff Holt
> Para: '@Atlarge Lista'
> Enviado: Sábado, 19 de Julio de 2003 11:00 a.m.
> Asunto: RE: [atlarge-discuss] The VOTE on the Polling Commission
> 
> 
> Mauro, et al...
> 
> Can't speak for Richard, but as a matter of fact, I have participated
> by voting on laws nationally, and contributed editing and conceptual
> design both on the local and organization level several times.  And am
> currently involved with drafting the Constitution for an online 3D
> community as well...  History and the development of government have
> been a serious study of mine at different times of the past 40
> something years, lol....  and how NOT to word things in a manner that
> makes then incomprehensible to the normal citizen.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Jeff Holt
> Jefftttt@txucom.net
> www.tejas-info-services.com
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: A/S Mauro D. Ríos [mailto:mdrios@adinet.com.uy]
> Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 12:29 AM
> To: Richard Henderson
> Cc: @Atlarge Lista
> Subject: Re: [atlarge-discuss] The VOTE on the Polling Commission
> 
> Richard and @All,
> 
> Did you participate in the writing of the last 10 laws of your country?
> Did you participate in the writing of the last 10 internal rules in
> your company? (if you are not boss)
> 
> I am sure you didn't participate in the writing, but also these for
> sure YES
> you participated or you are entitled the constitutional of vetoing any
> law
> that the Parliament edits.
> 
> It is not possible to apply direct Democracy for practical reasons. I
> don't imagine to the North American town or any other one, everything,
> gathered in the Great Canyon editing and discussing the texts of the
> laws.
> And it is not for that one cannot be carried out, all the North
> American citizens surely enter in the Great Canyon (?), the problem is
> that it is not
> practical neither executive.
> 
> The guarantees will be in the statutes, how the guarantees for the
> citizens
> of their country are in the constitution of a country. And in this case
> there are particularities for that it is the beginning. You would
> participate in the writing of the Declaration of Rights of Jefferson?
> (if
> you lived in that time).  And if it had participated, who did give him
> the
> permission?, you did ask to the citizens if they agreed with the text?.
> did
> Obviously later all agree with that wonderful text. (I say all for that
> that
> text was the base for the constitution of my country).
> 
> ..........................
> [ES]
> ¿Tú participaste en la redacción de las últimas 10 leyes de tu país?
> ¿Tú participaste en la redacción de las últimas 10 reglas internas en
> tu empresa? (si no eres el jefe)
> 
> Estoy seguro que no participaste en la redacción, pero también estos
> seguro
> que SI participaste o tienes el derecho constitucional de vetar
> cualquier
> ley que el Parlamento redacte.
> 
> No es posible aplicar Democracia directa por razones prácticas.
> No me imagino al pueblo norteamericano o cualquier otro, todo, reunido
> en el
> Gran Cañón redactando y discutiendo los textos de las leyes. Y no es
> por que
> no se pueda hacer, seguramente todos los ciudadanos norteamericanos
> entran
> en el Gran Cañón (?), el problema es que no es práctico ni ejecutivo.
> 
> Las garantías estarán en los estatutos, cómo las garantías para los
> ciudadanos de su país están en la constitución de un país. Y en este
> caso
> hay particularidades por que es el comienzo. ¿Tu participarías en la
> redacción de la Declaración de Derechos de Jefferson? (si vivieras en
> esa
> época). Y si hubiera participado, ¿quién le dio el permiso?, ¿Ud. le
> preguntó a los ciudadanos si estaban de acuerdo con el texto?.
> Obviamente
> después todos estuvimos de acuerdo con ese maravilloso texto. (Digo
> todos
> por que ese texto fue la base para la constitución de mi país).
> 
> 
> cordially,
> Mauro. -
> 
> 
> ----- Mensaje original -----
> De: Richard Henderson
> Para: atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de
> Enviado: Viernes, 18 de Julio de 2003 08:30 p.m.
> Asunto: Re: [atlarge-discuss] The VOTE on the Polling Commission
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hugh Blair <hblair@hotfootmail.com>
> 
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Richard Henderson
>> >
>> > Where Panel opinion and Membership opinion diverge, whose
>> > opinion will take precedence?
>>
>> Richard, you have the wrong question because you don't
>> understand the intent. Here's how I see this happening:
> 
> 
> Hi Hugh,
> 
> No I don't have the wrong question, I have the question I wanted to
> ask.
> 
> I wasn't alluding to the specific decisions on how to constitute the
> Panel,
> but to the long-term relationship between the Poll and the Panel.
> 
> Say here are 120 issues polled in the coming 12 months...
> 
> Say the Panel disagrees with the expressed opinion of the Membership in
> 7 of
> those issues.
> 
> "Where Panel opinion and Membership opinion diverge, whose opinion will
> take
> precedence?"
> 
> That is my question.
> 
> Abel implies that in such cases, the contested issues would be put to a
> "full vote". But some would argue that an elected Panel should be
> allowed
> the slack to exercise its own judgements, contrary to Poll findings,
> particularly where the result is marginal.
> 
> And then you are into very grey and contentious areas.
> 
> What I'm saying is that to pre-empt future conflict, we should state
> clearly
> the rules of precedence.
> 
> Personally, I do not like the argument that you let elected Panelists
> do what they want, and everything will be alright in the end because
> you can
> always vote them out later. I dislike that argument because the damage
> may
> be done in the meantime.
> 
> Personally, I've advocated all along that we should create a
> constitution
> where the Membership is always sovereign, and has powers to intervene.
> The
> Polling Process can be part of that Process of Intervention.
> 
> If we are bottom-up, and implementing the wishes of the membership,
> then we
>should safeguard the membership's priority. That does not mean running
>the
> whole org by Poll. Far from it. In any Polling Vote, there should be an
> option to "Allow the Panel to decide on grounds that I do not have an
> informed view of the issue"... something like that.
> 
> There should also be a means of distinguishing serious polling issues
> from
> frivolous ones.
> 
> But where issues are serious, and polled, and the majority want to
> re-direct
> the Panel, then the constitution must re-enforce that right (IMHO). It
> should not be left to an unwritten 'understanding'.
> 
> No doubt all these matters will be addressed *before* any move to
> initiate
> the Poll. And yes, I'm happy to be patient about all this, with thanks
> for
> your thoughts and efforts!
> 
> But I conclude -  the line management:
> 
> Members > Panel
> Members > Poll > confirm Panel policy or re-direct it.
> 
> But it is always the Members who are the controlling guardians of their
> own
> organisation.
> 
> 
> yrs,
> 
> Richard H
> 
> 
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