Re: [atlarge-discuss] Part 2 - Re: [atlarge-discuss] Incorporation & MarginallyUseful Insects

[eric@hi-tek.com]

Joey,
You are being a dawg,

But keep it up it spurs good discussion and interest.
I think your points regarding lawyers and doctors probably fit registers and ISPs
in this fora.

Your hands print mean and nasty about groups, but I am afraid you are incapable of
hating.

If you work hard with Bruce and Richard I am sure good will come of it.

Eric

Joey Borda **star*walker** wrote:

> (Continued from Part 1...)
>
> ----------
>
> At 08:29 PM 8/10/2002 -0700, eric@hi-tek.com wrote [in Hatred and Outreach
>   at http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00471.html]:
>
> >Whoa Bro,
> >
> >Hatred is harmful and contageous.
> >Please look at the fingers pointed at you when you point one in anger.
> >I cannot know your life but can feel your pain and hatred when you write.
>
> Maybe it will surprise, then, that I have an agreeably cantankerous,
> irascible and respectfully mutual and equal relationship with my doctors.
> We engage each other with great humor and fondness.
>
> That might not have always been the case with my primary physician had I
> not right at the first asked him how it would be for him to work with me, a
> gay man. Or at a next appointment, to which he arrived 45 minutes late,
> when I asked him if he liked to piss off all of his clients by being late. ;-)
>
> No Eric, I don’t hate doctors, not even as a class. Nor do I hate lawyers,
> or the people who make our pills. Or the teamsters; I especially like them.
>
> What I hate is being manipulated by monopoly or monopolistic predatory
> practices, no matter what power group holds it. By your measure or
> misunderstanding I’d have a rather hot hate for Bill Gates every time I’m
> reminded of his monopoly and am forced to use his products. (Linux is still
> too challenging for me so let’s not go there.)
>
> Actually I admire him, to a point. I’d love to be in the same room with me
> for a while. Yet there is such a thing as too much greed, too much
> predation instead of innovation, and a pursuit of the dream of dying having
> accumulated the most toys that injuriously affects us all.
>
> His unending accumulation of capital on the “backs” of many third world
> people I cannot find admirable. I find it opportunistic and despicable. Is
> it hateful for me to say that?
>
> He’s as close as we could come to asserting that somehow my “hate” is
> personal against an individual in the terms we’ve been talking, and I
> simply don’t hate him.
>
> >Hating all in the legal profession and all in the medical profession is a
> >little
> >troublesome.
> >Please limit your hatred to a few that you know, lest some be justified in
> >hating
> >everyone like you, because of your actions.
>
> Here I’ve mostly already answered.
>
> In the terms we’ve been talking about I’ve using the word profession
> synonymous with institution or organization or association, not as class of
> people.
>
> There is for me a very big difference. People are real, organizations are
> not. People can feel hurt, organizations cannot. People can bleed,
> organizations cannot.
>
> That the same cannot be said for their for-profit stockholders, who
> actively choose to engage in rigged legalized gambling, my heart goes out
> to them when they get wiped out and bleed, but not for their greed that put
> them in the game in the first place.
>
> Organizations, especially legally incorporated ones are artificial
> “creatures” chartered by a state or nation, and are in and of themselves
> without souls. Their sole purpose for being is to limit the financial
> liability of those who inhabit them, and of late their criminal liability
> as well. They are the casinos, and the game is often rigged.
>
> As for my actions I have never, at least not since I was a child if then,
> knowingly or willingly injured anybody, not even in feeling, other than
> what has been lovingly required in coming to know my truth in personal
> relationships with others.
>
> The only physical violence I’ve ever engaged in was in response to an
> overwhelming threat on my life through others’ use of violence.
>
> >This path should not be followed and not tolerated by our civilized group.
> >I do not know this person who calls themself starwalker
> >but I can register hate mail when i see it.
> >Be careful here folks.
> >
> >eric
>
> I have to say, Eric, that your assertion in the above paragraph kind of
> takes my breath away.
>
> If you are a doctor or lawyer or in the pharmaceutical business, I’m sorry.
> What I wrote was not a personal attack on you, or anyone else.
>
> I wish I could say I’ve gotten to know you better through your post, but I
> cannot. I am perplexed.
>
> Perhaps we’ll get to know each other better and more cordially the next time.
>
> ----------
>
> At 11:14 PM 8/10/2002 -0700, todd glassey wrote [in Re: [atlarge-discuss]
> Incorporation & Marginally Useful Insects at
> http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00478.html]:
>
> >Go out to the Secretary of State's website for your favorite state, and
> >follow the step by step directions.
> >
> >Todd
>
> Todd:
>
> I’m glad you added this, for those of us in the U.S. at least. When I was
> doing my incorporations in the early ’80’s such access was not possible.
>
> I completely omitted it (unintentionally) because I was so focused on
> lobbying for non-U.S. incorporation. ;-)
>
> ----------
>
> At Sat, 10 Aug 2002 22:56:40 -0700, Jeff Williams wrote again [in
> abbreviated form at http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00472.html]:
>
> >Hatred is fundamentally wrong.  Hatred is crippling to positive progress,
> >unproductive, disruptive, and cannot effect positive change, which is
> >needed in many areas...
>
> For me, hate is fundamentally destructive of life and all living things, of
> both the hater and the hated. To wit, Matthew Sheperd's death and the two
> young men’s lives lost who hated him, and themselves, and in killing him
> attempted to kill something in themselves as well.
>
> The similar citations possible are just too staggering to pursue here.
>
> Hatred, true hatred, not simply dislike, comes of the phenomenon studied
> specifically in Baboons, and inherited in our genes, the mechanism that is:
>
> “See the stranger, fear the stranger, hate the stranger.” Of course this
> conflates the complexity of what happens a little (the rage response), but
> is simple to witness and is particularly striking in the ferocity of attack
> in Baboons, but certainly outdone by us humans.
>
> As evolved as we’ve become, with empathy and compassion being the latest
> layered capacity of the human brain (and the least used), we still have the
> capacity to devolve, in an instant, to any threat, perceived or real. It is
> testimony to the strength of the survival mechanism, predating all but
> perhaps sexual reproduction.
>
> ----------
>
> At 10:35 PM 8/10/2002 -0700, eric@hi-tek.com again wrote [in Hatred and
> Outreach at http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00475.html]:
>
> >I will stand up and die, quickly, to stop any group hatred against another
> >group.
>
> Eric, I commend you for your principled and passionate stand. I hope it
> will not have to come to that in this group. I'm as certain as I can be
> that it will not come to that in this group.
>
> And I pray that should you meet up with any of the increasing number
> neo-Nazis groups and fanatical religious brigades (those that would kill us
> to save us) around the world that you have a lot of friends with you and
> overwhelming firepower.
>
> >If this group stands for the hatred of ICANN, Lawyers, Doctors, Gays, Latinos,
> >Communists or democrats, Then I will not quit the group but if need be die
> >destroying it.
>
> ICANN is an organization. The rest are not necessarily, rather individual
> people recognizable as having some affiliation with each other. As to how
> hated ICANN may be in this group, if at all, I cannot say. I see what they
> have done, are doing, as despicable.
>
> More than that Gays and Latinos are each recognizable classes
> (non-hierarchical) of people with intrinsic unifying characteristics and
> qualities that go beyond voluntary affiliation.
>
> Being in one of those classes I am pleased and gratified that you will
> stand with me in opposition to the hatred, discrimination and violence
> directed toward me simply because I am gay.
>
> >Attacks on JW are personal and different.  But attacks on whole blocks of
> >individuals is sick.
> >Vint Cerf is and engineer, Should we then hate Karl and Jefsey?
> >
> >I am most bothered by this attack on groups.
> >
> >Eric
>
> I have well and respectfully answered you regarding “attacks” on groups,
> which is your characterization, which I am agreeably in disagreement with you.
>
> But... but... here I have to disagree with you emphatically. I see things
> the opposite.
>
> You cannot harm a group, only an individual or individuals in a group, and
> then only in person (allowing for omitting libel or slander). Harming
> individuals in any group, requires some form of presence-access to that
> person personally.
>
> This is to be distinguished from harming a group through the commission of
> terroristic violence to an individual member of that identifiable group for
> the purpose of terrifying every member of that group that the same thing
> can and will happen to them if they should not keep “in their place.”
>
> On the contrary, except for the recitation of facts reasonedly, if
> sometimes impassionedly (I like passion myself; who would’a guessed?), to
> discredit JW’s claims and credibility, I disagree with your suggestion that
> somehow attacking JW personally is OK.
>
> Fortunately, for the most part (if at all, as I haven’t read everything so
> I won’t say with 100% certainty) I haven’t seen “attacks” on JW in this
> list intended to harm him, but instead asserting truth contrary to his
> espoused truth.
>
> And from what I’ve seen JW takes pretty good care of himself.
>
> Notwithstanding that, genuine assaults on individuals are NOT OK with me,
> nor do I think it should be for anyone else. Nor do I think that anyone
> else here does. I have not seen it happening, as fiery as some of the
> exchanges have been, in my short time paying attention to this group.
>
> ----------
>
> Last but not least... at 04:12 PM 8/11/2002 -0700, Jeff Williams wrote
> again [in Hatred and Outreach at
> http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00502.html]:
>
> >Eric and all stakeholders or other interested parties,
> >
> >Attacks of various types are not necessarily a demonstration of
> >Hatred.
> >
> >Groups are made up of individuals.  Reasonable attacks on what
> >those individuals and/or groups are to be expected and indeed
> >perhaps necessary in order to expound upon and issue or a
> >point of one kind or another.  These sorts of attacks are not
> >necessarily a expression of Hatred.
> >
> >eric@hi-tek.com wrote:
> >
> > > I will stand up and die, quickly, to stop any group hatred against
> > another group.
>
> Exactly. They were not meant as attacks, rather as angry, passionate
> assertions, out of my experience of how some of the world, a very important
> part of my world, works from my perspective. Angry because I am largely
> impotent to do anything about them except to express them.
>
> I do what I can locally, e.g. with my doctor as I’ve described. I said what
> I said to him (see above) because my time IS as important as his time, and
> I will not waste it waiting on him.
>
> But by and large I can barely throw feathers at the monoliths, so they will
> not come to much harm from me by that route.
>
> To finally conclude, I do not waste my time hating. I’ve long recognized
> that I only hurt myself with that. Besides, I’m a lover. ;-)
>
> Cordially and collegiately to all… /s/ Joey
>
> [Forgive any typos or misspeaks or mangled words. I just don't have
> anything left to proofread one more time. Besides, it's good enough for
> non-profit work in this slightly less than formal venue. ;-)  ;-) ]
>
> [Finally completed at Sunday, August 11, 2002 * 7:11 PM EDT USA]
>
> Put your action where your... err... speech is!
>
> Support democratic operation of the Internet! Go to
> http://www.icannatlarge.com and Join ICANN At Large!
>
> Then create your personal volunteer profile
> at  http://www.icannatlarge.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=19 and tell everyone
> what you have done, and/or can do, and/or are willing to do -- NOW! :-)
>
> (Please at least book mark the above links.)


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