[atlarge-discuss] Part 2 - Re: [atlarge-discuss] Incorporation & Marginally Useful Insects

[Joey Borda **star*walker** <starwalker@gay.com>]

(Continued from Part 1...)

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At 08:29 PM 8/10/2002 -0700, eric@hi-tek.com wrote [in Hatred and Outreach
 at http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00471.html]:

> Whoa Bro,
>
> Hatred is harmful and contageous.
> Please look at the fingers pointed at you when you point one in anger.
> I cannot know your life but can feel your pain and hatred when you write.
Maybe it will surprise, then, that I have an agreeably cantankerous, 
irascible and respectfully mutual and equal relationship with my doctors. 
We engage each other with great humor and fondness.

That might not have always been the case with my primary physician had I 
not right at the first asked him how it would be for him to work with me, a 
gay man. Or at a next appointment, to which he arrived 45 minutes late, 
when I asked him if he liked to piss off all of his clients by being late. ;-)

No Eric, I don’t hate doctors, not even as a class. Nor do I hate lawyers, 
or the people who make our pills. Or the teamsters; I especially like them.

What I hate is being manipulated by monopoly or monopolistic predatory 
practices, no matter what power group holds it. By your measure or 
misunderstanding I’d have a rather hot hate for Bill Gates every time I’m 
reminded of his monopoly and am forced to use his products. (Linux is still 
too challenging for me so let’s not go there.)

Actually I admire him, to a point. I’d love to be in the same room with me 
for a while. Yet there is such a thing as too much greed, too much 
predation instead of innovation, and a pursuit of the dream of dying having 
accumulated the most toys that injuriously affects us all.

His unending accumulation of capital on the “backs” of many third world 
people I cannot find admirable. I find it opportunistic and despicable. Is 
it hateful for me to say that?

He’s as close as we could come to asserting that somehow my “hate” is 
personal against an individual in the terms we’ve been talking, and I 
simply don’t hate him.

> Hating all in the legal profession and all in the medical profession is a 
> little
> troublesome.
> Please limit your hatred to a few that you know, lest some be justified in 
> hating
> everyone like you, because of your actions.
Here I’ve mostly already answered.

In the terms we’ve been talking about I’ve using the word profession 
synonymous with institution or organization or association, not as class of 
people.

There is for me a very big difference. People are real, organizations are 
not. People can feel hurt, organizations cannot. People can bleed, 
organizations cannot.

That the same cannot be said for their for-profit stockholders, who 
actively choose to engage in rigged legalized gambling, my heart goes out 
to them when they get wiped out and bleed, but not for their greed that put 
them in the game in the first place.

Organizations, especially legally incorporated ones are artificial 
“creatures” chartered by a state or nation, and are in and of themselves 
without souls. Their sole purpose for being is to limit the financial 
liability of those who inhabit them, and of late their criminal liability 
as well. They are the casinos, and the game is often rigged.

As for my actions I have never, at least not since I was a child if then, 
knowingly or willingly injured anybody, not even in feeling, other than 
what has been lovingly required in coming to know my truth in personal 
relationships with others.

The only physical violence I’ve ever engaged in was in response to an 
overwhelming threat on my life through others’ use of violence.

> This path should not be followed and not tolerated by our civilized group.
> I do not know this person who calls themself starwalker
> but I can register hate mail when i see it.
> Be careful here folks.
>
> eric
I have to say, Eric, that your assertion in the above paragraph kind of 
takes my breath away.

If you are a doctor or lawyer or in the pharmaceutical business, I’m sorry. 
What I wrote was not a personal attack on you, or anyone else.

I wish I could say I’ve gotten to know you better through your post, but I 
cannot. I am perplexed.

Perhaps we’ll get to know each other better and more cordially the next time.


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At 11:14 PM 8/10/2002 -0700, todd glassey wrote [in Re: [atlarge-discuss] 
Incorporation & Marginally Useful Insects at 
http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00478.html]:

> Go out to the Secretary of State's website for your favorite state, and
> follow the step by step directions.
>
> Todd
Todd:

I’m glad you added this, for those of us in the U.S. at least. When I was 
doing my incorporations in the early ’80’s such access was not possible.

I completely omitted it (unintentionally) because I was so focused on 
lobbying for non-U.S. incorporation. ;-)


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At Sat, 10 Aug 2002 22:56:40 -0700, Jeff Williams wrote again [in 
abbreviated form at http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00472.html]:

> Hatred is fundamentally wrong.  Hatred is crippling to positive progress, 
> unproductive, disruptive, and cannot effect positive change, which is 
> needed in many areas...
For me, hate is fundamentally destructive of life and all living things, of 
both the hater and the hated. To wit, Matthew Sheperd's death and the two 
young men’s lives lost who hated him, and themselves, and in killing him 
attempted to kill something in themselves as well.

The similar citations possible are just too staggering to pursue here.

Hatred, true hatred, not simply dislike, comes of the phenomenon studied 
specifically in Baboons, and inherited in our genes, the mechanism that is:

“See the stranger, fear the stranger, hate the stranger.” Of course this 
conflates the complexity of what happens a little (the rage response), but 
is simple to witness and is particularly striking in the ferocity of attack 
in Baboons, but certainly outdone by us humans.

As evolved as we’ve become, with empathy and compassion being the latest 
layered capacity of the human brain (and the least used), we still have the 
capacity to devolve, in an instant, to any threat, perceived or real. It is 
testimony to the strength of the survival mechanism, predating all but 
perhaps sexual reproduction.


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At 10:35 PM 8/10/2002 -0700, eric@hi-tek.com again wrote [in Hatred and 
Outreach at http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00475.html]:

> I will stand up and die, quickly, to stop any group hatred against another 
> group.
Eric, I commend you for your principled and passionate stand. I hope it 
will not have to come to that in this group. I'm as certain as I can be 
that it will not come to that in this group.

And I pray that should you meet up with any of the increasing number 
neo-Nazis groups and fanatical religious brigades (those that would kill us 
to save us) around the world that you have a lot of friends with you and 
overwhelming firepower.

> If this group stands for the hatred of ICANN, Lawyers, Doctors, Gays, Latinos,
> Communists or democrats, Then I will not quit the group but if need be die 
> destroying it.
ICANN is an organization. The rest are not necessarily, rather individual 
people recognizable as having some affiliation with each other. As to how 
hated ICANN may be in this group, if at all, I cannot say. I see what they 
have done, are doing, as despicable.

More than that Gays and Latinos are each recognizable classes 
(non-hierarchical) of people with intrinsic unifying characteristics and 
qualities that go beyond voluntary affiliation.

Being in one of those classes I am pleased and gratified that you will 
stand with me in opposition to the hatred, discrimination and violence 
directed toward me simply because I am gay.

> Attacks on JW are personal and different.  But attacks on whole blocks of 
> individuals is sick.
> Vint Cerf is and engineer, Should we then hate Karl and Jefsey?
>
> I am most bothered by this attack on groups.
>
> Eric
I have well and respectfully answered you regarding “attacks” on groups, 
which is your characterization, which I am agreeably in disagreement with you.

But... but... here I have to disagree with you emphatically. I see things 
the opposite.

You cannot harm a group, only an individual or individuals in a group, and 
then only in person (allowing for omitting libel or slander). Harming 
individuals in any group, requires some form of presence-access to that 
person personally.

This is to be distinguished from harming a group through the commission of 
terroristic violence to an individual member of that identifiable group for 
the purpose of terrifying every member of that group that the same thing 
can and will happen to them if they should not keep “in their place.”

On the contrary, except for the recitation of facts reasonedly, if 
sometimes impassionedly (I like passion myself; who would’a guessed?), to 
discredit JW’s claims and credibility, I disagree with your suggestion that 
somehow attacking JW personally is OK.

Fortunately, for the most part (if at all, as I haven’t read everything so 
I won’t say with 100% certainty) I haven’t seen “attacks” on JW in this 
list intended to harm him, but instead asserting truth contrary to his 
espoused truth.

And from what I’ve seen JW takes pretty good care of himself.

Notwithstanding that, genuine assaults on individuals are NOT OK with me, 
nor do I think it should be for anyone else. Nor do I think that anyone 
else here does. I have not seen it happening, as fiery as some of the 
exchanges have been, in my short time paying attention to this group.


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Last but not least... at 04:12 PM 8/11/2002 -0700, Jeff Williams wrote 
again [in Hatred and Outreach at 
http://www.fitug.de/atlarge-discuss/0208/msg00502.html]:

> Eric and all stakeholders or other interested parties,
>
> Attacks of various types are not necessarily a demonstration of
> Hatred.
>
> Groups are made up of individuals.  Reasonable attacks on what
> those individuals and/or groups are to be expected and indeed
> perhaps necessary in order to expound upon and issue or a
> point of one kind or another.  These sorts of attacks are not
> necessarily a expression of Hatred.
>
> eric@hi-tek.com wrote:
>
> > I will stand up and die, quickly, to stop any group hatred against 
> another group.
Exactly. They were not meant as attacks, rather as angry, passionate 
assertions, out of my experience of how some of the world, a very important 
part of my world, works from my perspective. Angry because I am largely 
impotent to do anything about them except to express them.

I do what I can locally, e.g. with my doctor as I’ve described. I said what 
I said to him (see above) because my time IS as important as his time, and 
I will not waste it waiting on him.

But by and large I can barely throw feathers at the monoliths, so they will 
not come to much harm from me by that route.

To finally conclude, I do not waste my time hating. I’ve long recognized 
that I only hurt myself with that. Besides, I’m a lover. ;-)

Cordially and collegiately to all… /s/ Joey

[Forgive any typos or misspeaks or mangled words. I just don't have 
anything left to proofread one more time. Besides, it's good enough for 
non-profit work in this slightly less than formal venue. ;-)  ;-) ]

[Finally completed at Sunday, August 11, 2002 * 7:11 PM EDT USA]

Put your action where your... err... speech is!

Support democratic operation of the Internet! Go to 
http://www.icannatlarge.com and Join ICANN At Large!

Then create your personal volunteer profile 
at  http://www.icannatlarge.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=19 and tell everyone 
what you have done, and/or can do, and/or are willing to do -- NOW! :-)

(Please at least book mark the above links.)