Re: [atlarge-discuss] No quorum

["Ron Sherwood" <sherwood@islands.vi>]

Dear Hugh:

My comments and proposal were not based entirely upon your derisive
condemnation of the panel.  It was based upon the sad history of the way
this (dis)organization has conducted its business.

I happen to believe that given the opportunity and support needed to do the
job without constant interference, and the authority that is currently
denied them, the panel could well complete the tasks assigned to them.  If
they don't perform adequately (within an appropriate time frame) then those
that are failing should be encouraged to step down and be replaced.  The
membership always has that option.  However, the current system has not
worked, your own observations confirm that, and I simply do not believe that
your strident criticism and negative summation of their efforts helps in any
way.

My proposal has finite conditions that are to be met, yet affords the
opportunity to meet them without having to squander precious time and energy
on the impossible task of responding to those who would rather criticize the
panel (and each other) than do the work.

Ease back on the derision, Hugh, and get involved with a workgroup that
provides positive input for the panel to incorporate into their presentation
to the membership.

I am sure the panel will heed any advice that you may wish to offer, but
they must consider that advice in the context of all other advice and their
own work.  You do cannot dictate to the panel, you were not elected to do
so.  If you try to do that, you will destroy the fragile system that is in
place.  My proposal is an attempt to strengthen the system and make it
robust enough to be able to manage the disparate ideas and opinions of 1000
people who have just as much right to input as do you.

Sincerely, Ron Sherwood

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hugh Blair" <hblair@hotfootmail.com>
To: <atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de>
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 4:59 PM
Subject: RE: [atlarge-discuss] No quorum


> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ron Sherwood
> >
> > There cannot be accountability without authority, yet I
> > constantly read that the panel has zero authority to do
> > anything.  It seems that we expect them to accomplish
> > certain tasks while being subjected to a barrage of criticism
> > and complaint from every direction.  It seems that we have
> > eleven slaves and 1000 slavemasters (even if some
> > slavemasters are more vocal than others).
> > This is unacceptable and needs to change immediately.
>
> And you expect the Panel members to operate without
> the members giving them any advice? That's like asking
> me to vote for a Senator and then ignore him/her and
> not continue to voice my opinion. If you think everything
> you've read is a "complaint", then you're wrong. And even
> if it was, isn't it 'normal' for people to agree quietly
> and yet disagree loudly? And your next paragraph directly
> contridicts the one above.
>
> Besides, what's being discussed in this thread is their
> *lack* of activity on a specific issue. Don't make a
> straw-man out of these messages.
>
> > It is reasonable for members to express their views on any task being
> > performed by the panel.  It is also reasonable for the panel
> > to read and consider (and, if necessary, reconsider and reconsider)
> > those comments.  A process which will naturally lead to them being
> > accused of failing to make a decision quickly enough.
>
> Uh, how about even VOTING as making a decision?  Is that
> really too much to ask?
>
> > Add to this an environment where any decision is
> > the wrong decision for someone, and where the panel is
> > repeatedly told they have no authority to make a decision without
> > a vote to decide whether or not they have the authority to make the
> > decision they made...  and we have devolved into the ridiculous.
>
> The "rediculous" is that the Panel can't even vote on their
> own decisions.
>
> > It is patently impossible for the panel to satisfy opposite
> > points of view, or for that matter to perform any of the tasks
> > required of them, if they remain subject to this type of daily
> > (hourly) harassment.
>
> <sarcasm> (violins playing softly) </sarcasm>
>
> > Until they prove me wrong, I have total faith in the people
> > that we elected do this difficult work for us.  I believe that,
> > if we harass them to the point where they are unable to work,
> > and eventually step down because the "effort-to-accomplishment
> > ratio" is just too great, we will achieve NOTHING.
>
> They have already proved themselves incapibile of making decisions.
> What more do you want?
>
> > If a member of this organization has the authority to propose
> > a solution to this sad state of affairs, I Propose that:
> >
> >     WE, the members of this group that is currently known as
> > ICANATLARGE, do accord the members of our duly elected organizing
> > panel the authority to accomplish, without the requirement of
> > additional permissions or constraints from the membership, those
> > tasks required of them in outline. Namely:
> >
> > 1) complete and provide to the membership for discussion and eventual
> > ratification, a mission statement that simply but clearly declares the
> > purpose and method of our organization.
> > 2) complete and provide to the membership for discussion and eventual
> > ratification a set of by-laws under which the organization may be
> > incorporated.
> >
> > 3) complete and provide to the membership for discussion and eventual
> > ratification a set of rules under which the organization's
> > website should be managed and the appointment of a webmaster.
> >
> > 4) research and present to the membership for discussion and eventual
> > ratification a recommendation for the type of incorporation
> > that we should undertake and the location best suited to
> > that incorporation.
> >
> > 5) research and present to the membership for discussion and eventual
> > ratification the best methodology for dealing with membership polls,
> > ratification votes, votes on other issues properly raised and
> > appropriately supported, and elections.
> >
> > 6) arrange on behalf of our organization the process for
> > registration or transfer of any trademarks and domain names to
> > whatever legal entity is formed as the result of count 4) above.
>
> I'm with you up to here.
>
> > It is further proposed that:
>
> > 7) while the authority hereby bestowed is limited to the
> > above listed tasks, the panel may at any time request additional
> > authority (e.g. to perform the incorporation of our organization
> > according to the ratified will of the membership).  And, that if
> > granted by a majority of voting members, such authority will not be
> > questioned unless it is removed by similar process.
>
> This won't fly. This organization should never allow a process to
> not be questioned.
>
> > 8) it is specifically confirmed in this proposal that the
> > above limited authority and protection from constraint does not
> > prevent the panel from appointing working groups or other advisory
> > devices and does not prevent the panel from seeking membership input
> > on any issue, directly or through the atlarge discuss list. Nor does
> > it require such procedures.
>
> Still not flying. There is no way the Panel members should be insulated
> from any "membership input on any issue."
>
> > 9) the tasks in count 1) through 6) plus any additional tasks are not
> > necessarily in order of priority but that the panel will, by
> > weekly report, advise the membership of the progress being made on
> > each count and an approximate time for expected completion.
>
> I'd agree to 1 through 6 with number (7) being:
>
> 7) Any Panel member that hasn't voted on the issues before it in
> the balloting that ended 2-Oct-2002, and doesn't vote on the
> next Panel ballot, whenever that may be, is automatically removed
> from the Panel and a replacement shall be sought from the list
> of members that voted in the last election. The need for a
> replacement shall immediately be announced, and a vote on this
> replacement shall be held within 14 days of a Panel members
> removal.
>
> Fix, if possible, #s 7,8 & 9, and add this one, and I'll be
> on your side.
>
> Hugh
>
>
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