Re: [at large-discuss] Identity WG and limiting posts.

[Jeff Williams <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com>]

Andrew and all stakeholders or other interested parties and members,

McMeikan, Andrew wrote:

> While I am seriously against censorship and invasions of privacy I believe
> that any representative that can take an official office must be established
> as a real and verifiable person.
>
> Birth certificate, government issued photo ID and other hard to forge
> documents can help in this.

  None of these documents are difficult to forge.  Drivers licenses
in most US states have photo's on them and are still very easy to
forge.  Birth certificates in the US are also very easy to forge as well,
in fact much easier than photo ID's.  I am not sure what you mean
by government issued ID's.  ???  It is also very difficult to know
from members from other countries, which may not have a
Birth certificate that is legitimate, or any at all, or have a drivers
license, of photo ID.  A well known example of this would be
Butros Butros Galli when he first became a representative
a the UN.  So in conclusion I would venture a guess that
although in the US and most European countries such ID
may be both helpful and also divisive at times as well due
to the huge number of forged identity documents that are
easily available.

  The second and likely more difficult problem with the
helpfulness of these documents is answering the obvious
question as to how do you protect against Identity theft
now becoming a huge problem in the US.  One of the
recommendations that the US FBI suggests is to not
put copies of you personal ID in image or any other
format online.  Hence this leaves this organization a
serious problem in accomplishing identification using such
ID online not doable for the sake of safety of the members.

>
>
> In fact just a telephone number is probably all that's really needed most of
> the time with only those holding positions of power (treasurer etc.) having
> to divulge more details.

  Well some or many members or potential members outside of
the US may not have their own Phone number of a phone in their own name.
Still others yet in the US, may have a silent or unlisted number they do not
wish available to this or any other organization.  But in many instances in the
US, you are right, the fact that a member or potential member that has
a Phone number in their own name would be adequate for basic identification
purposes.  However in China, and many asian countries this would
not be a good or viable identification method or means.

>
>
> I would still like to believe that there is a place for anonymous comments.
>
> How do people see the following set up.
>
> 1. anonymous guest comments in forums, public comment areas
> 2. unverified, email address, persistent nyms.  - regular contributors who
> do not wish to disclose private details.
> 3. contactable verified persons, able to hold positions
> 4. Highly accountable, we know where they live, can successfully get
> arrested if they run off with the cash box.  Need plenty of details. Able to
> hold important office and be legally responsible.

  This might be fine/fair or adequate for US citizens if and only if there
is adequate security methods, legal liability insurance, and filed affidavit
to protect the identify of those members whom this specific information
is kept on file and that the incorporation of this organization is in the
US also.  It would not be fine/fair or even close to adequate for members
or potential members outside the US, especially in Asia and even in some
EU countries as you outline it above, Andrew.

  The other problem I see here is that such private information must also
be protected from unsolicited advertising, and online SPAM, or sale
of that members name and personal details to various companies
that sell lists of names and addresses/phone numbers for the purposes
of selling them something that the member did not request.  There are
several federal laws in the US called consumer protection laws that
carry some severe consequences along these lines.

  Hence I would suggest the following:

1.) Any and all personal information requested, not be mandatory and should
in no way impede or reduce the level of servitude of any member in any capacity
unless or until the organization can guarantee the privacy and security of that
members personal and private information, provide for compensation should
such and same personal private information be in place and stated in the form
of legal liability insurance of no less than $500,000 per individual incident
included in that policy.

2.) Whether or not a individual member whom is self declared as a
     real person, may participate in any aspect of this organization
     without incumbency unless or until that member can be proven
     via a proper legal means as to be non existent.  a.)  That any other
     member, or officers of this organization may challenge any other
    member or officer of this organization, in a court of proper
     jurisdiction, as to their actual identity if and only if, such
    is approved by the vote of the members, and existing funds
   to exact or effect such a challenge be approved by the members
   to adjudicate such a challenge. b.) That no member at any time
   will be harassed in any way so as to induce or unduly influence
   that member to accept any online or forum based identity challenge;
   that said challenge to member or potential new member be ask once
   and only once and replied to once and only once.  That furthering such
   a challenge, if perceived needed, or desired by any other single member
   be required to be done via legal means in a court of proper and legal
   jurisdiction but that individual member, or if the membership votes
   in a simple majority of all listed members, with no less than 40%
   of members voting, the organization than can proceed in a legal
   challenge in the proper legal jurisdiction should such laws exist
   for such a legal challenge.  c.) that the practices and laws of the
   home countries    of the members regarding personal and private
   information be observed at any and all times, without exception.


>
>
> Only a dedicated few will want to be in 4, many persistent people who care
> will be prepared to be in 3.
>
> The vast unwashed masses will surely only care for 2, with the paranoids in
> 1.
>
> Is such a system practical?
>
>         cya,    Andrew...
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Deif Fenderson [mailto:idiscreditfrauds@indiatimes.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 4:02 AM
> > To: atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de
> > Subject: [atlarge-discuss] Identity WG and limiting posts.
> >
> >
> > Members of the WG-ID group,
> >
> >
> > Could you please tell us where things are going?  We
> > desperately need some action here.  We must have *REAL*
> > people in our group if we are to be taken seriously.  I
> > seriously doubt the 1000 member level.
> >
> >
> > Remember the votes in our election?  There are at least 12
> > zombis in this mailing list group! And there is one REAL big
> > annoyance.
> >
> >
> > There have been repeated calls for a limit on the number of
> > posts a person can make a day.  Please we must implement this
> > soon, before all the normal people are scared away.  And
> > beleive me, our credibility as a group is being seriously
> > compromized.  We have people with no authority setting up
> > bank accounts for this group and proposing to send speakers
> > from non-existant companies to represent us in Singapore.  If
> > we are going to get anything useful done, we've got to clear
> > out some of the noise!!!!
> >
> >
> > Either verify the identity of our members (I seriously doubt
> > we still have 1000 members) or impose some posting controls.
> > It's not censorship!  Make the number of posts high enough to
> > allow for a debate - but one day this kook posted 30 times.
> > Make the threshold 8, and we can reduce some of this crap and
> > porvide releif to people with slower connections.
> >
> >
> > Thank you for your action.
> >
> >
> > Deif
> >
> > ==============================================
> > I Discredit Frauds.
> > See the incredible claims!
> > Learn who Jeffrey A. Williams is:
> > http://www.angelfire.com/clone/jeffwilliams/
> > ==============================================
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>
>

Regards,

--
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 127k members/stakeholders strong!)
CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com
Contact Number: 214-244-4827 or 972-244-3801
Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208



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