Re: [atlarge-discuss] Re: FC: ICANN attorney replies to Politech post on "self-regulation's end"

[eric@hi-tek.com]

Gentlemen,

This is in fact a very useful thread.

One of the finest diplomats of this century is regarded in history as a
brute.
His position was stated simply "Walk softly and carry a big stick"

In our case our stick must be large public opinion and large membership,
proper procedure and representativeness - The prongs of the white paper
which ICANN cannot afford.
But at this point that is questionable and so we have been using sharp
wit and pointed questions which are usually answered by plausibly
deniable responses by plausibly deniable persons such as Mr. Sims.

But I caution Ron.  In the Western legal evidentiary parlance they have
a term "passive admission", which essentially requires any horrendous
allegation or act be met with an equal horrendous denial or act, or it
is admission that the allegation is valid.  Yes I am speaking of
violence, but of the verbal kind which Mr. Henderson engaged in with Mr.
Sims.

Ron it would appear you miss two vital points;
We are not dealing with nice people here.
We are the only factor which has a chance of helping our dotcommoners
maintain accessibility.
When I say we I refer to those of us who actively participate in
blocking the unconscionable conduct of a monopolistic grouping of US
centric Corporations.
WLS is a perfect example of out pricing dotcommoners.

Some of what we need to do here is extremely uncomfortable, but fine
folks like Mr. Henderson have to keep doing it, in the face of such
horrendous activity flowing from the top down.

Sincerely,
Eric


Richard Henderson wrote:

> Thanks for your comments Ron
>
> My issue is with ICANN, and in the face of their discredited administration,
> I reserve the right to be confrontational - which, in this case, includes
> posing questions they don't want to discuss.
>
> I have no issue with you Ron, or your right to dislike my style.
>
> Indeed I agree with many of your views, and I would not be sorry if you were
> elected onto the panel in place of me.
>
> I genuinely wish you well, understand what you are saying here, and share
> many of your expressed concerns.
>
> However, with respect, I shall continue to challenge ICANN in a blunt and
> straightforward way. I believe many people regard them as jerks and
> fuckwits.
>
> I would not disagree with that analysis.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Richard
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ron Sherwood <sherwood@islands.vi>
> To: Richard Henderson <richardhenderson@ntlworld.com>; Jeff Williams
> <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com>; <declan@well.com>
> Cc: <politech@politechbot.com>; General Assembly of the DNSO <ga@dnso.org>;
> atlarge discuss list <atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de>
> Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 1:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [atlarge-discuss] Re: FC: ICANN attorney replies to Politech
> post on "self-regulation's end"
>
> > Good morning, Richard:
> >
> >     I do not question the validity or "reasonableness" of your questions
> to
> > Mr Sims.  I do, however, question your delivery of those questions.
> >
> >     I am a new member of this group, introduced by a prime mover who is no
> > longer in good health and unable to participate.  I have been primarily a
> > lurker, attempting to get up to speed on the endeavors of this at-large
> > group.  The arcane references to people and past events, known and
> > understood only by "insiders" has made the aquisition of related knowledge
> > somewhat difficult at times.  However, I have learned over the past few
> > months that there are members who have certain defined and valuable skill
> > sets, and others who have very different skill sets.  Your skill set, sir,
> > does not include diplomacy.
> >
> >     Any reasonable person reading your letters would recoil from the
> > aggressive and often overtly rude wording.  Why should anyone be inclined
> to
> > respond to questions, even serious questions, when they are presented in
> > such an aggressive manner?
> >
> >     It is my humble opinion that our organization is in very real need of
> a
> > spokesperson representative who can carry our dialog to others in the
> manner
> > in which all successful international diplomacy is conducted.  We do need
> > leaders who have the technical knowledge, the vision and the mindset that
> > defines our organization as being representative of the global user.  But,
> > we also need leaders who are managers (to bring our organization to
> > functionality), marketing experts (to grow the membership to be truly
> > representative of users on a global scale), and diplomatic communicators
> (to
> > present our case to ICANN, to government representatives, to other
> > organizations and to the media. To allow our voice to be heard with
> > respect).
> >
> >     While I respect and support your freedom to speak to whomever you wish
> > as an individual, I do not think your communication skills are suitable
> for
> > representing me as a member of this organization.
> >
> > Sincerely, Ron Sherwood
> >
> > --- Original Message -----
> > From: "Richard Henderson" <richardhenderson@ntlworld.com>
> > To: "Jeff Williams" <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com>; <declan@well.com>
> > Cc: <politech@politechbot.com>; "General Assembly of the DNSO"
> > <ga@dnso.org>; "atlarge discuss list" <atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de>
> > Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 9:32 PM
> > Subject: Re: [atlarge-discuss] Re: FC: ICANN attorney replies to Politech
> > post on "self-regulation's end"
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I refer you to the reasonable questions and concerns sent to Dan
> Halloran
> > 35
> > > days ago, which he has still not had the courtesy to acknowledge, let
> > alone
> > > answer, presumably because the ICANN Board would prefer not to answer
> > > difficult (but reasonable and relevant) questions.
> > >
> > > Mr Sims,
> > >
> > > You don't have to be "religious" and zealous for global democracy to
> > assert
> > > that ICANN lacks responsiveness to its stakeholders. If you claim any
> > > credibility at all, then kindly get me rational answers to my fair and
> > > honest questions.
> > >
> > > But no, I guess you will not even reply, because the general public have
> > > found in practice that the ICANN establishment skulks away and hides
> when
> > > challenging questions (relevant to stakeholders) are raised.
> > >
> > > Will you reply? Will ICANN acknowledge my relevant questions? Prove me
> > > wrong! Get me some answers!
> > >
> > > Otherwise, kindly don't lecture us on ICANN at all, or create a
> > smokescreen
> > > of "global democracy lunatics" to hide behind. I do not have to be a
> > lunatic
> > > to request openness, responsiveness, courtesy and transparency. But that
> > is
> > > what ICANN (and I suggest possibly you - we shall see...) lack.
> > >
> > > Oh, and one other thing... whether ICANN is or is not self-regulatory,
> it
> > > presides over a system which is... registrars who regulate themselves,
> and
> > > who commit fraud, and yet remain accredited by ICANN.
> > >
> > > Richard Henderson
> > > www.theInternetChallenge.com
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Jeff Williams <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com>
> > > To: <declan@well.com>
> > > Cc: <politech@politechbot.com>; General Assembly of the DNSO
> > <ga@dnso.org>;
> > > atlarge discuss list <atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de>
> > > Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 2:18 AM
> > > Subject: [atlarge-discuss] Re: FC: ICANN attorney replies to Politech
> post
> > > on "self-regulation's end"
> > >
> > >
> > > > Declan and all,
> > > >
> > > >   Of course, many of us that have been around for awhile, like myself,
> > > > recognize that old Joe had to put some sort of spin on this.  That's
> > > > what he gets paid to do after all, and handsomely to boot.  Hence
> > > > giving his comments of this nature much credence or consideration
> > > > would be a huge mistake or at least quite misleading...  Same
> Ding-Dong,
> > > > Sing-Song...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Previous Politech message:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Michael Geist on ICANN, Congress, end of 'self-regulation'"
> > > > > http://www.politechbot.com/p-03653.html
> > > > >
> > > > > Joe Sims is ICANN's chief outside counsel.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Declan
> > > > >
> > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > > > To: declan@well.com
> > > > > Subject: Michael Geist's column
> > > > > From: "Joe Sims" <jsims@JonesDay.com>
> > > > > Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:03:28 -0400
> > > > >
> > > > > Of course, Geist has it all wrong.  I hope you will consider
> > publishing
> > > > > this response.
> > > > >
> > > > > The notion that not enough happens at ICANN in public, and that the
> > > answer
> > > > > to ICANN's problems is more transparency, illustrates a profound
> lack
> > of
> > > > > understanding about what ICANN really does, and how it really does
> > > > > it.  Prof. Geist is not the only one that doesn't get it, but since
> he
> > > has
> > > > > the ability to publish columns, it is probably worth while trying to
> > > > > correct his misunderstanding.
> > > > >
> > > > > Contrary to Prof. Geist's assertions, ICANN is not a self-regulatory
> > > > > body.  It was never intended to be a self-regulatory body.  It was
> > > intended
> > > > > to be a forum for the possible discovery of consensus solutions to
> > > global
> > > > > issues related to the DNS -- a way, quite frankly, for national
> > > governments
> > > > > to find a place for the resolution of global DNS issues that did not
> > > > > require a new treaty organization.  It is true that its original
> > > structure
> > > > > called for half its Board to be selected by a general At Large
> > > membership
> > > > > of some kind, but that was certainly not the consensus view of the
> > > Internet
> > > > > community at that time.  Prof. Geist, having not been part of the
> > > > > discussions with the US Government that produced that construction,
> is
> > > > > undoubtedly unaware of the fact that no one involved in that
> decision,
> > > and
> > > > > I include those in the US Government (feel free to ask them) was
> > > convinced
> > > > > that such an approach was really workable.  The ICANN organizers
> > wanted
> > > to
> > > > > insert the words "if feasible;" the US Government position at the
> > time,
> > > for
> > > > > reasons I leave to the reader to imagine, was "we'll figure out how
> to
> > > do
> > > > > it later."  The then brand-new Board of ICANN, without the
> assistence
> > of
> > > > > Jon Postel who had died a month earlier, acquiesced to this
> position,
> > > > > notwithstanding a quite clear concern that it might not be possible
> to
> > > make
> > > > > it work.  In hindsight, I am quite sure most regret this decision.
> > > > >
> > > > > We now have almost 4 years of experience by which to test the
> concepts
> > > on
> > > > > which the original construction rested, and we actually know some
> > things
> > > > > that we did not know then.  We know that the notion of global
> on-line
> > > > > elections is fraught with problems that are too complicated for
> ICANN
> > to
> > > be
> > > > > on the bleeding edge on innovation in this area.  We know that there
> > is
> > > no
> > > > > consensus in the ICANN community on exactly how the public interest
> > > should
> > > > > be represented in ICANN's structure, notwithstanding the insistence
> of
> > > > > those like Prof. Geist that there is only one possible solution.  We
> > > know
> > > > > that part of the reason there is no consensus is that those who
> insist
> > > on
> > > > > direct elections of Board members have refused to consider any other
> > > > > alternative way of representing the public interest; this religious
> > > > > approach is not conducive to compromise or consensus.
> > > > >
> > > > > We also know that a purely private organization, without the support
> > and
> > > > > involvement of governments from around the world, will not be able
> to
> > > carry
> > > > > out thes mission assigned to ICANN (if you believe that mission
> > requires
> > > > > the agreed participation of all the relevant infrastructure
> > > > > providers).  ICANN has no guns, and no soldiers; it has no coercive
> > > > > power.  It can succeed only if the relevant portions of the
> community
> > > > > voluntarily agree that they want to participate and make it succeed.
> > To
> > > > > date, that has not happened.  We can argue all we want about why it
> > has
> > > not
> > > > > happened, but it is clear that the reason is not the failure to hold
> > > > > on-line elections.  The fact is that the root server operators, the
> > > address
> > > > > registries, and the ccTLD registries must be persuaded to come to
> the
> > > ICANN
> > > > > table, and it will not help that process to make ICANN a less
> stable,
> > > less
> > > > > predictable organization.
> > > > >
> > > > > Finally, we know (or at least some of us strongly believe) that the
> > path
> > > to
> > > > > ICANN success is an appropriate public/private partnership, with the
> > > > > private sector and global governments working together within an
> ICANN
> > > > > structured to accept input from all but also able to make effective
> > > > > decisions in a timely way.  We are clearly on the path to such an
> > ICANN,
> > > > > and I hope we will take another step toward that goal at the meeting
> > in
> > > > > Bucharest later this month.
> > > > >
> > > > > The notion that government interest in ICANN is heightened by the
> > > failure
> > > > > to adopt some form of global elections is laughably naive.
> > Governments
> > > are
> > > > > properly interested in ICANN because the Internet is increasingly
> > > critical
> > > > > to the well-being, social and commercial, of their citizens, and
> > because
> > > > > what ICANN is responsible for is critical to the continued stable
> > > operation
> > > > > of the Internet.  This would be true whether all or none of ICANN's
> > > > > directors were elected by the general public.  And it is this fact
> > that
> > > is
> > > > > driving the process of gaining the proper level of government
> > > participation
> > > > > in ICANN, nothing else.  This is the real world; Prof. Geist insists
> > on
> > > > > occupying some academic construct of a world.  This longing for some
> > > > > utopian construct is not useful in trying to reform ICANN into a
> body
> > > that
> > > > > does reflect, as best it can be done, the views and concerns of the
> > > entire
> > > > > Internet provider and user community.
> > > > >
> > > > > Joe Sims
> > > > > Jones Day Reavis & Pogue
> > > > > 51 Louisiana Avenue NW
> > > > > Washington, D.C. 20001
> > > > > Direct Phone:  1.202.879.3863
> > > > > Direct Fax:  1.202.626.1747
> > > > > Mobile Phone:  1.703.629.3963
> > > > >
> > > > > ==============================
> > > > > The preceding e-mail message (including any attachments) contains
> > > > > information that may be confidential, be protected by the
> > > attorney-client
> > > > > or other applicable privileges, or constitute non-public
> information.
> > It
> > > is
> > > > > intended to be conveyed only to the designated recipient(s). If you
> > are
> > > not
> > > > > an intended recipient of this message, please notify the sender by
> > > replying
> > > > > to this message and then delete it from your system. Use,
> > dissemination,
> > > > > distribution, or reproduction of this message by unintended
> recipients
> > > is
> > > > > not authorized and may be unlawful.
> > > > > ==============================
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list
> > > > > You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice.
> > > > > To subscribe to Politech:
> > http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html
> > > > > This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/
> > > > > Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > Like Politech? Make a donation here:
> > http://www.politechbot.com/donate/
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > --
> > > > Jeffrey A. Williams
> > > > Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 124k members/stakeholders strong!)
> > > > CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng.
> > > > Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
> > > > E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com
> > > > Contact Number:  972-244-3801 or 214-244-4827
> > > > Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-unsubscribe@lists.fitug.de
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-help@lists.fitug.de
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-unsubscribe@lists.fitug.de
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-help@lists.fitug.de
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-unsubscribe@lists.fitug.de
> For additional commands, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-help@lists.fitug.de

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-unsubscribe@lists.fitug.de
For additional commands, e-mail: atlarge-discuss-help@lists.fitug.de