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Re: [atlarge-discuss] Re: the preview icannatlarge.org site...



At 22:31 15/12/02, Stephen Waters wrote:
On Fri, 2002-12-13 at 07:28, J-F C. (Jefsey) Morfin wrote:
> Encryption has nothing to do with security. Security is about
> spoofing. Internet is a spoofing system.

Well... let's just say encryption is but one tool in a total security
solution.
would you no then say safety?

On a wide-open public network, it's a prerequisite for
transactional security. I don't understand the Minitel architecture
enough to know whether it's more POTS style (circuit-based) or more
Internet style, but it doesn't sit well with me if credit card bits,
etc. are not encrypted.
Internet is an high speed 8 bits unreliable system with a lot of different access where you can spoof.
Minitel is a low speed 7 bits, X.25 based system with a protected access metered gateway.
Minitel is not for e-commerce, but for practical e-services. It is free or you pay (on your telephone bill) by the time you spend - in addition to the connect time.

Anyway, you're preaching to the choir about encryption not equaling
security. I agree with that. :)

> America is fucking by phone and payng through ceditcards. Other style.

True, but I'm saying that I'd be worried an American-tel network would
not be content neutral if it were run by U.S. Congress. I demand content
neutrality from my networks (TV, Internet, telephone, etc.).  While
French gov't censors Nazi propaganda, U.S. Congress would be censoring
sexually explicit material.
Minitel is a telephone service, so it is easily related to the local laws. French law was quite relax: the same as fro press. The sexual stuff was regulated in part (same as press) because you had to explictly indicate it is an adult service when registering. There is no surfing, so no real problem. The use is quite the same as every data/telephone network: direct access, menus. I created hyperlinks services among several different systems, but that was quite complex and costly, so I mostly created them virtually between sub-services (let say 3LDs) but that was not common.

so, I agree with you that we have different styles, Minitel and
Internet, France and U.S. (and China, Canada, etc.).
Minitel is just a popular off-spring of Transpac and Cyclades etc. where IP zones and end to end datagrams were created (Louis Pouzin).

As a programmer, I don't see why these all cannot coexist and I think
they should be, at least at the network level, "compatible", or at least
"able to be compatible with some software hand-holding".
compatibilty is complex as technically and societally they do not really fit. There are several Minitel access through the Internet and mail access through Minitel. But I would say that Minitel is far more rustic and more societally advanced in the "transparent" way it is used by atleast 90% of the people and a part of the TV games, etc.

> main application is telephone directory, then e-government, local life,
> cinema, etc. etc.. quick, cheap, millions of simple users. Minitel set is
> free. You cannot do that in a country where you have several operators.

I have to beg to differ, here. I can name several U.S.-wide Internet
telephone directories that all have slightly different "perks". The free
press have always covered cinema, local life, etc. so we've never
bothered centralizing that data -- it's unnecessary. Texas has an open
government initiative that has been putting gov't information and
services online for several years now. The same is true of the national
gov't...  I can file my taxes online, collect unemployment without
waiting in line at the office downtown, etc.
You missed the point: the Minitel *set* is free. The basic device comes free with your telephone line. Since it has a rough cost of $ 400 a piece you see that the investment is around $ 60 billons. I do not see any US company investing that right now :-).

Minitel may have done it _first_, but it's not true that "You cannot do
that in a country where you have several operators". It may be true that
the Minitel system is simpler (i.e., has less choices, though the
choices may be higher quality). I cannot speak to that.
There is no better quality actually. It is different. It is far more practical and user oriented in real life. It is a medium, not a media.

> That lead to the real thing: to network the French people. Machines,
> applications, etc.. are nothing, what really count is noosphere, the
> people, the habitus.

exactly. Some people decry the downfall of the neighborhood, but the
fact is, my neighbors are idiots for the most part. I *don't* want to
hang out with them. I'd rather talk to and code with friends across the
globe than have a neighborhood barbecue.
:-) got you !

for example, see the Debian developers' map:
http://www.debian.org/devel/developers.loc
Always wanted to find a way to stabilize my project under debian. but too complex for my low IQ. I try to see if FreeBSD is better. What do you develop?

> The secret of Minitel is that anyone can host a system for you, software to
> build and load pages are ofthen free, hosting cheap and connecting a
> service makes you gain money. You may not pay and make very stable money.
>
> Try to beat that :-)

actually, this is the promise of broadband for small businesses here in
the States. unfortunately, broadband companies have been mismanaged
(overselling) and hamstrung by government-sponsored monopolies (i.e.,
the ILEC problem) seeking to expand their control over the wired 'Net.

my DirecTV DSL service has 160,000 customers and they can't turn a
profit so they're closing shop. I had my personal website running off my
box here and now I've got to move it. I imagine many business customers
of theirs will be doing the same thing.

> There are several "TLDs". equivalent to ORG is free, COM is cheap, NET os
> more expensive, etc... This permits very sophisticated expensive services
> to be in direct access. You just modulate the speed of display and short
> cut to make casual users to pay more than regular users or even direct
> computer access.

that must be a French thing cause it violates my sensibility that QoS
should be content neutral. If QoS is a problem, that tells me you need
to upgrade the network, not just hack it to give priority to X
customer's data over Y customer's data. To use an extreme example,
remote surgery should not cause a slowdown in porn downloads, or vice
versa.
Sorry, I ill explained. When you set up a Minitel service, you chose the access rate people will pay to you to access your service. Depending on the value of yor information you may chose from free to around $60 an hour. Your users pay you through their monthly telephone bill.

You may be called by totally different people so you do not know what they know, what they want. But you want to service them properly and them to stay so you collect your money. This means that you do not want to go too fast (you waste your service, they get lost and quit) and not too slow (they get fed up and quit). This is some kind of self regulating system where everyone must be happy.

So you organize your service to serve faster those who know how to use it (they use to come back and you also want to be attractive).But not too fast or too simply (since professional people may automate procedures from their PC calling hours to dump your data). So you put timers, transparent to the normal user, but regulating the access from a PC process.

jfc

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