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Re: [atlarge-discuss] Some Simple Facts...



On the other hand, David (and I speak as one who has always valued your
comments) - I don't think you can limit the term "Fascist" just to
historical fascism and its victims... fascism is a mentality, fascism is an
outlook on life, fascism is a method and an approach... I regard American
economic expansionism as being innately fascist in nature... I regard ICANN
disregard for democratic process and accountability (coupled with insider
deals and cynical abuse of power and process) as innately fascist in its
instincts... and I don't care if some participants in ICANN are Jewish or
not, the term still applies.

I'm not involved in your dialogue with Jefsey (except in as far as I
participate in the list where you have published your comments) but Fascism
is very much a term for the modern world and we will see it demonstrated
plenty in the months ahead. I prefer to reserve the term for those people or
agencies or societies who disdain the opinions and dignities of others, and
try to use some kind of power to enforce their will usually at the expense
of others. In this sense (though it seems a contradiction in terms) some of
the old communist regimes were deeply fascist too, whatever their veneer of
ideology.

Let's stop attacking one another and simply agree this... let each
contribute what they can... let each follow their vision and their belief...
and let others follow, travel alongside, or help move forward whichever
vision captures their imagination.

At present I think we are skirting round the edges of significant
initiatives, and yes, I'm frustrated that we struggle so much to create
structure. I think that's partly because we have all avoided defining what
mission we want to be engaged on. There are different goals in mind... so we
find it hard to agree. I'd like decisive clarification of what the
MEMBERSHIP wants from this organisation... I'd like a series of votes on
that... so it's truly democratic. We're not all working to the same ends and
we need to draw together a team (however small) of activists willing to
invest time and even money to a goal and mission they can really believe in.

If that means starting up a new panel or even a new organisation, so be it.
But first, you need to establish specifically and with clarity what your
real goals are. Mine are a form of internet democracy... wider than ICANN,
though there is a small corner somewhere for ICANN's temporary role to be
considered.

For others, it's simply a narrow mission to try to increase accountability
inside ICANN, and that's that. I respect that desire, but as I think it's
destined to be defeated, I have little real interest or commitment in what I
perceive to be a goal doomed to failure from the start.

The only bylaws I am really interested in are those which will support a
wholly independent user group, which is militant with regard to the
democratic rights of ordinary people worldwide, and which refuses to "do
business" with ICANN because ICANN is - to use the term you hesitate to
use - essentially Fascist in its top down use of power (backed by even
greater power) to control internet and DNS interests which actually belong
to all the world.

I will not waste my life losing to ICANN.

So please: can we define what this group's goals are. And then let's define
what other groups goals are. When I find I am part of a team of active
people who share the same vision, then I am sure, nothing will stop us
organising and pursuing our ends.

Bottom line: let all the people decide. Bottom line: let there be a hundred
organisations if need be. The ones which truly capture the dreams and
convictions of many people will be the ones they consider worth joining.

I'm not interested in "ICANN" at Large... I'm interested in a network of
Internet Users all over the world committed loosely to self-determination,
democratic principles, sharing, co-existing...

Some people would call that the Internet itself... problem is, there are
serious signs that the Internet is being captured by powerful economic or
political entities... at least, they are trying to capture it... how long
before poorer people cannot afford to buy access to parts of the net... how
long before the media is controlled and content is censored... I don't know
the answers to that, and I hope developing technology makes it impossible to
put these constraints on the Net... but I am convinced that ICANN is in the
hands of people who want to "control"... and I don't even believe ICANN
should exist.

Richard H

----- Original Message -----
From: DPF <david@farrar.com>
To: J-F C. (Jefsey) Morfin <jefsey@club-internet.fr>
Cc: Atlarge Discuss List <atlarge-discuss@lists.fitug.de>
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: [atlarge-discuss] Some Simple Facts...


On Mon, 06 Jan 2003 12:13:44 +0100, "J-F C. (Jefsey)  Morfin"
<jefsey@club-internet.fr> wrote:

>On 08:48 06/01/03, DPF said:
>>Oh grow up you silly little man.
>
>Are you so sure you are above used car resellers?

You have deleted the reference I was responding to which I repeat
below:

"Let be pragmatic: you call for global action and for leadership. This
has a name: Fascism. This has never worked"

I consider my response extremely mild when you bandy such provocative
accusations about.  Especially when some of us have relatives who were
executed by actual fascist regimes.  So don't start playing the
innocent wounded - you can't call effectively call people fascists
(for the crime of disagreeing with your ideas) and not expect a severe
response.  Your credibility with me anyway has plunged from sceptical
to permanently zero.  I see little point in trying to continue to hold
a civil discussion while you resort to such tactics as labeling ideas
you disagree with as "Fascism".

DPF


--
E-mail: david@farrar.com
ICQ:    29964527
MSN:    dpf666@hotmail.com

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