[atlarge-discuss] Logorrhea Re: [atlarge-discuss] Panel Motion Passed! On toElections!

[espresso@e-scape.net]

At 20:06 -0800 2003/04/04, Jeff Williams wrote:
>> You will see that the mini-ballot
>> option chosen by a majority of those members who chose to vote
>> called for me to hold the information on behalf of the group
>> for use in the conduct of elections.
>
>  Indeed true.  However that ballot was not one that was of
>any official nature or approved by the majority of the participating
>mambers.  Hence,as such has no standing legally.

In case you had forgotten, Jeff, this group has no legal standing
either. Nor, in fact, does its Interim Panel or the ex-Chair who
tried to circumvent it by sending the files to me instead of
the Panel members to whom it should have gone in the first place.

All I did, in fact, was exact a promise from the remaining
members of the outgoing Interim Panel that they would indeed
act *jointly* to call for the elections the members had demanded,
as they had already agreed to do but had not acted upon together
as they were supposed to.

>  Also I agree and have always agreed with this.  However again
>the Ex-Panel no longer officially exists.  Hence such does not
>let you our of the responsibility of honering your Pledge.  This
>you did no do.  Therefore you violated your pledge and
>in doing so endangered the members privacy and security,
>expossed if not made certain, that a number of the members to
>potential great harm unecessarly and irresponsively.

As an individual member, I am no more obligated towards you or
any other member than any other person would be. I neither
collected the membership list, requested it, used or misused it,
nor exposed anyone to anything they were not *already* exposed
to by the fact that others had the list and FTP access password.
(Heck, I never even opened the membership files!)

Whatever "great potential harm" exists to an individual by virtue
of having registered with personal information on an unsecured
Web site operated by an unincorporated bunch of miscellaneous
malcontents, every one of the registered members accepted that
risk when they registered. I have nothing to do with building,
maintaining or administering the Web site and never had. The
people who are (at least technically) responsible for those
things are the elected members of the Interim Panel -- and they
are the very people to whom I gave the files.

I still maintain that a vote to hold new elections does not absolve
elected Panelists from the duty to arrange for the elections.
Nobody *voted* to give me those files or to withhold them from
the remaining Panelists -- that was a unilateral decision by
Vittorio.

One of the more interesting features of this group is how quick
certain members were to blame me for what Vittorio did AND for what
the Panel itself did not do.

>  However this fact also did not give you the right to pass to
>ANYONE the membership list without each members
>expressed premission.  That you did not and still do not
>have.  Yet you did it regardless, and by a unsecure means,
>FTP.  You sould have first checked to find out if the
>reciepiants of that information have secure systems
>that meet a minimum documented, and excepted
>standard.  Second you sould have used SFTP or
>another form of secure transmission.  You did not do
>so.  Third, you knew that Jefseys PC/System is NOT secure
>as the evidance has been presented to this very forum.
>Forth, you failed to act responsibly as well in that
>it is known that Eric's system is not secure either and
>you did not seek to gather that information before hand,
>or did not even consider such prior to insecurely transmitting
>via FTP, the membership list.

As I've already said at least twice, Jeff, I did not transfer
the files using FTP. (It is beginning to dawn on me that you
may be on the "Drinking Man's Diet" or something, if you are
not actually participating here in the hopes of preventing
this group from becoming a real organization. I've been giving
you the benefit of the doubt for months but ...)

>  So regardless of your weaseling here, you and you predominantly
>are personally responsible even under Canadian law.  Thankfully
>extradition to the US from Canada is not a problem.

Good luck, Jeff. Whatever you are planning to sue me for, it's
unlikely to be an extradictable offense and I have no intention
of setting a foot across the border until there's a "regime
change" south of it.

As to who owns the domain name, whether you liked the results
of the elections which created the first Interim Panel, how
you would like masses of money to be raised to conduct the
new election using a commercial provider, etc. ... none of
these things have anything to do with me.

>> Endless in-fighting will not resolve the stalemate and the Panel
>> refused to speak with one voice until my possession of the
>> membership list and insistence on a Panel motion compelled
>> them to accept the collective nature of their responsibility.

I stand by that comment. This group will either agree to
accept as legitimate an election process whose organization
falls to the sole remaining administrative entity of the group
or will come up with its own agreed-upon alternative. If you
all want to elect an alternative body to handle the elections,
that's fine. If you all want there to be two or three sets
of elections run by different people simultaneously and another
year wasted while you argue about the results, so be it.

As for the rest of your message (which I leave undeleted below),
I can only say that your accusations are misplaced and I don't
much care whether the money you waste is your own or belongs to
people who should know better than to sink it in a frivolous
lawsuit. By the way, you can't seize the wages of somebody
who doesn't get any, and veiled threats of having me imprisoned
or otherwise injured on your say-so - especially when you
continue to falsify the facts - are unlikely to cut much ice
with me OR the courts.

>From Montreal, not Margaritaville,

Judyth



>> >  YOU Judyth, have without the consent of the members,
>> >by request of ONLY three members, sent the membership list
>> >which you pledged to protect to nonexistent panel members
>> >by your own admission.  That is not excusable unless or until
>> >you had the permission of the members.  In doing so you
>> >have surely exposed some if not many members to hackers,
>> >spammers, and those that would engage in identity theft by
>> >transmitting the membership list via FTP which is not secure.
>> >
>> >  Hence in my capacity as a citizen of the US, a member of
>> >the security community and USG, if find myself required now
>> >to file the necessary documentation regarding these events,
>> >to the proper legal authorities.  I have already been on the
>> >Phone today with several of those authorities in the US and
>> >Canada for almost 3 hours in total.  I shall be forwarding the
>> >remainder of the event documentation which I saved in my
>> >SECURE database and from other independent sources
>> >that are also aware to those authorities for further legal
>> >filings.
>>
>> If you choose to waste your time and money on frivolous lawsuits,
>> go to it.
>
>  Oh it's not my money.  And nothing wasted.  But even if it were
>it would still not be wasted.  Principals are worth every dime
>and much much more...
>
>> Threats and intimidation simply don't work on me,
>> Jeff, as you should know by now. Come to think of it, if I
>> were the litigious type I could probably sue you for a thing
>> or two, and I'm sure that with your vast organization and
>> expert skills, you have far more to lose than I do as a freelance
>> editor who has spent far too many workable hours on this
>> group instead of making money. Unless you can figure out how
>> to seize my debts, you're SOL - no house, no car, and nothing
>> over the personal assets protected by law from seizure. [:-)]
>
>  Garniture of wages is one but one possibility.  And I will not
>be making a dime.  And your ignorance of even Canadian
>law is astounding given your comments here...
>
>>
>>
>> Meanwhile, of course, I sent the files not by FTP but by e-mail
>> to the three remaining Panelists. (It is interesting that after
>> all the false accusations and complaints against me, none of
>> the three had acknowledged their receipt of the files within
>> 48 hours.) Since the files were sent to me improperly in the
>> first place, I had no real mandate to do anything with them
>> except what the voters in my straw poll told me to: hang onto
>> them and make them available for use in the elections.
>>
>> I have done this and would gladly have erased my copies but have
>> acceded to the Panel's request that I hold onto them as backups,
>> at least until the group can agree on a third-party escrow.
>> As I explained to this list, the files are now on a diskette and
>> I still haven't opened them.
>>
>> Jeff, there is no reason to believe any of the three is less
>> trustworthy than Vittorio who had the information before I did.
>> I should never have been given the files in the first place but
>> made no illicit use of them myself, and we all know by now you
>> think I'm the least honest of the lot. Meanwhile, we all know the
>> Web site was hacked during Vittorio's watch and that Joop also
>> has the membership list with perhaps a handful of exceptions.
>> If you get spammed or the site gets hacked again, it won't be
>> my fault so I don't think you can frighten me by saying you'll
>> try to lay it at my door.
>>
>> >> In any case, I would rather this group carried on and
>> >> elected a new Panel which can start fresh, especially if the
>> >> only other option is more of the very-man-for-himself-ism
>> >> we've seen these past months.
>> >>
>> >> Give the guys a break and let them do the $#$%^& job they
>> >> were elected for.
>> >
>> >  "They" as you put it, no longer exist legitimately as yo well know
>> >Judyth.
>>
>> As far as I am concerned (and most other members, I suspect) the
>> current Interim Panel ceases to exist at the moment their
>> successors are elected.
>
>  Your suspecion has already been shown as no being correct
>as Richard already has yet again provided in his post yesterday.
>
>> However, the current Panelists are well
>> aware their mandate at this point is to properly organize the
>> election of those successors, nothing more and nothing less.
>
>  And that mandate does not exist.
>
>>
>>
>> I look forward to seeing what happens next...
>
>  Perhaps getting your affairs in order is a good idea.  And
>consider bying some/allot of soap on a rope, just in case!
>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Judyth
>>
>> ##########################################################
>> Judyth Mermelstein     "cogito ergo lego ergo cogito..."
>> Montreal, QC           <espresso@e-scape.net>
>> ##########################################################
>> "A word to the wise is sufficient. For others, use more."
>> "Un mot suffit aux sages; pour les autres, il en faut plus."
>> ##########################################################
>>
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>
>Regards,
>
>--
>Jeffrey A. Williams
>Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 129k members/stakeholders strong!)
>================================================================
>CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security
>Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC.
>E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com
>Contact Number: 214-244-4827 or 214-244-3801


##########################################################
Judyth Mermelstein     "cogito ergo lego ergo cogito..."
Montreal, QC           <espresso@e-scape.net>
##########################################################
"A word to the wise is sufficient. For others, use more."
"Un mot suffit aux sages; pour les autres, il en faut plus."
##########################################################



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