Re: [atlarge-discuss] Some Simple Facts...

["J-F C. (Jefsey) Morfin" <jefsey@club-internet.fr>]

Before that absurd debate goes too far.

At 08:51 07/01/03, DPF wrote:
> Basically it is a term of abuse not far removed from calling someone a Nazi.
This is your own reading. Certainly not my writing.
Yet I am concerned by the style of your response.

> That sort of name calling belongs in primary school and I don't
> expect to see at large panelists (I don't mean you) throwing it
> about as a term of abuse to members who don't agree with them.
Some fun: this is ... childish and ... disciminatory :-)

David, I am not responsible for the wording of the dictionary you use.
You may also note that I used capital "F" to make sure you would
understand about what I talked about. Just assumed you were a
smart grown and educated person.

> The dictionary definition of fascism is:
>
> fas·cism
> 1)      A system of government marked by centralization of authority
> under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the
> opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of
> belligerent nationalism and racism.
> 2)      Oppressive, dictatorial control.
"Fascism" is the goverment doctrine of the Italian Monarchy under its 
Socialist Prime Minister Benito Mussolini. I do not think that the "Duce" 
ever claimed such a definition. As the author and as a typical example of 
his own proposition, I credit him with authority on the matter.

-------

Now, you clearly define what you want to do (and I keep asking
we ask the Members if this is what they want or not, as we
cannot write a mission statement if we disagree - but you
object to that questionning) :

- this organisation should a fairly narrow goal of increasing accountability
of ICANN and the reasons for that is because there are plenty of other
organisations already set up to do these other things.

and you name them :

- I want to fight government control of the Internet so I am a member of
Electronic Frontiers as that is their spaciality.

-> which government? I am not interested in the US Govs personnally.
   I think Yankee people are grown enough.

- I want to have an accountable .nz ccTLD so I am a member of InternetNZ

-> great. But quite egotical. What about non NZ situations?
    what about non ".nz" NZ people needs?

- I want to help with the Internet in developing countries so I am a
  member of ISOC

-> great. Never expected ISOC to be a primary channel for that.
    You do, OK. But South countries seem to have other demands.
    NetAids is not ISOC. Situation varies, but I never met any ISOC
    person in North/South meetings/list in here.

-  I support open source software so I am a member of a group
   which promotes that.

-> great. But what do you develop in term of network system?
    which user oriented architecture do you work on?
    how many days a year do you spend on it?
    what is you network model?

- I think your vision of a global organisation ...

-> "organization" seems to the be the key word. You think in
    terms of "organization". I feel Richard thinks in terms of
    people. I think in term of reality.

... fighting non ICANN issues will not succeed because
    organisations with well defined easily identifiable purposes
    will tend to be more successful

-> yes and no. The definition of fascism you give shows
    why (and this is why I say you root into Fascism and
    I disagree with that as non efficient, not as an insult).
    We are building a network, ie a consensus. Not fighting
    a war. You want to win, we want/have to live together.

    The internet is an interconnect between networks and
    people, including ICANN and Joe Sims. We have to be
    together. Organizations are interesting if they (firmly)
    share, not if they fight.

    If you fight, you lose some pepole and connectivity, what
    means you degrade your own system.

- otherwise you get mission creep which in fact is one
  of ICANN's big problems.

-> true. But the "mission creep" is not the problem. The
   problem is that ICANN ill addresses it.

   What you call "mission creep" is real life. Question is
   certainly "is IANA the right organization to address it?".
   I say no as a technician and a former INTL file manager.

   This only means that ICANN cannot both manage
   IANA and mission creep. Nothing more.

>The only bylaws I am really interested in are those which will support a
>wholly independent user group, which is militant with regard to the
>democratic rights of ordinary people worldwide, and which refuses to "do
>business" with ICANN because ICANN is - to use the term you hesitate to
>use - essentially Fascist in its top down use of power (backed by even
>greater power) to control internet and DNS interests which actually belong
>to all the world.

Amen.
But that does not mean that a non IANA ICANN would
not be a good partner.

>I will not waste my life losing to ICANN.

Then, David, you respond to Richard:

- "ICANN is on a year trial by DOC."

-> I would not bet on that. IMHO they are on trial only
    to know if they fill the job you oppose properly.

And you add : "I am hoping ICANN with new board
members and new staff can redeem itself to some
degree and want to be part of that process.  However
if things don't get better then I will happily be part of a
submission to DOC asking for the contract to be
terminated."

This is a dream I could share. But...

I hardly find how you can expect to see a new board
and a new staff, or we are not following the same ERC.
I do not think the ICANN is to redeem: it carries perfectly
its mission of  "private international" USG Internet
Agency.

Now, last question but interesting: on which grounds
will you ask of the DOC to do anything about ICANN?

- as an US citizen? I suppose not?
- as an Interntional @large? do you think they will care?

Your only legitimacy and capacity for pressure is that
the USG wants to pretend (we will see if they still
do that next week) ICANN is international. So your
only legitimacy is to be an NZ user and your
credibility in your protest is to be acknowledged
as a competent and informed user, ie an @large
Member.

Only nz@large can give you both, near the media,
the Govs and the Congress. And only world@large
as an international alliance of national and
specialized @large organizations can give nz@large
a recognition they will accept and an international
and global credibility - should world@large have
gained a real recognition near the media, the
social bodies and the Govs before, true a real,
positive and standing efficient action/cooperation.

You are not what you pretend to be. You are
what you do.

I am afraid anything else is a dream.
jfc









We will have far more influence with DOC if we join the at large,
participate in good faith, and yet still no progress is made, than if
we have refused to have anything to do with it.  It will merely allow
ICANN to paint us as a small unrepresentative group of fanatics.










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